Floating - SB issues or something else?

[jenzaar 11,605]

• • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)   0- 0.5ppm. tiny hint of green. (this will go down. you will see I've just changed the water. don't   me!)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)      0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)     0-5
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)    0.5
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)    0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)     0-5
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)   pH 7.6 //  GH 6drops  // KH 3 drops 
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)     SAME
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?   API test drops
      • * Water temperature?   about 74F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?   125 gallons, nearing two years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?    Fluval 406 (383gph)  and FX6 (900gph)
      • * How often do you change the water and how much?   Usually twice weekly, 90% and 50%+ for the second. 
    • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?    Today, something like 90%. I will ADMIT that the tests were done AFTER the giant water change. I didn't know before then that I'd be started a diagnosis thread 
    • * How many fish in the tank and their size?     7 fish - between 25 and 100g
    • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?   Prime
    • * What do you feed your fish and how often?   bloodworms, NLS, NLS veggie pellets. Normally fed 2 times a day. Lately it's just been lettuce for all.
    • * Any new fish added to the tank?    No.
    • * Any medications added to the tank?    None  
    • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.      Latest 2 rounds of Prazi (powder) done in April, along with buckets of salt for a mystery bacterial infection. Here is a link to the mess that started all that! Everyone healthy since then, and no real issues before that occured. I recently put to sleep one of my teles whose SB issues were only worsening, but she'd had them since fryhood.
    • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?   No
    • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?  Lots of floating for Biff, otherwise nothing unusual
    •  

 

 

 

I can't figure this out. Biff has never been the greatest swimmer - his beauty comes at a price. I knew his roundness would never help him, but I didn't expect his fins to grow so much and add to it.

Anyway, the last week he's been more floaty. I started feeding lettuce on Thursday, figured everyone could use a little veggie diet. It got worse and we'd find him upside-down, floating about. Kept on with lettuce, and tried peas on Saturday. Didn't seem to do anything for him.

 

I've been saying it's his swim bladder all along and was planning today to move him into a shallow tank. #1 to see if that'd help, #2 in case he was full of sand like another calico fatfat I knew of.

While I was cleaning the tank something told me to check his belly. I did, and I can't for the life of me decide whether it's squishier than the others. I think so? I thought this was one of those things that it's one or the other, no gray color between the two. 

 

Here are two videos for you. One of Biff just being, and the other trying to feel around his belly. 

 

 

 

Meds I know i have on hand - can't dig for them just yet

Metro, Kanaplex, Tri-sulpha, Metromeds, epsom salt. Will update with what else I have, also think I have a list somewhere of what's available at my lfs. 

 

Going to see if I can set up my old fry tub with any luck.

 

Please let me know which way you think this issue leans. He is a special fish to me.

 

Thank you!!

 

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

The ammonia could have exacerbated an underlying issue, or even sparked an infection if it stressed him. Go ahead and move him to the shallow tank, but no meds right now. Let's watch him for a day or two and see how the floating is in the new environment, okay? If he clamps or won't eat, let us know right away.

[DawnMichele 6,045]

Hope Biff feels better Jen.

[jenzaar 11,605]

Taryl, i just want to make sure we're on the same page - I'm not sure if you mean the ammonia from the tap when i do a water change, or if you were under the impression that it remains in the water and doesn't cycle away (it does ).

Not antsy to dose anything so no worries there. And yes if anything drastic changes/happens I'll let you know.

Thanks!

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

I might have been misunderstanding - I thought you were indicating you had some water quality issues in the tank that you were back on top of in addition to the residual trace from the tap. Was he coming from really good tank parameters and you don't know what started or exacerbated the floating?

[jenzaar 11,605]

I might have been misunderstanding - I thought you were indicating you had some water quality issues in the tank that you were back on top of in addition to the residual trace from the tap. Was he coming from really good tank parameters and you don't know what started or exacerbated the floating?

 

What I bolded and turned red - this! He's never been a great swimmer, always was a liiitle floaty. But it got bad in the last week. 

There were no issues with water quality going on that I know of. Wish I had done the testing before I changed it, but I don't suspect that it was an issue. 

 

I just don't know if these are swim bladder issues, or something bacterial. I read through a few threads with soft bellies and floating, and that was brought up. 

Hope Biff feels better Jen.

Thanks Dawn!

[mjfromga 1,784]

He looks quite lethargic being held out of water so long in comparison to Myrtle, who seems vigorous and flappy, but maybe that's his temperament or maybe the floaty issues at work. Hope he gets better! He's very pretty! He's shaped like my Citrine.

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

If his floating worsened with no triggers then I'd assume an infection, too. Please try a two week course of metro and kanaplex together in the shallow tank - daily water changes, warm water, no salt, light feeding okay?

If that doesn't fix it then we can assume it is congenital and has worsened since you've already tried green foods. Did you ever fast him?

[shakaho 6,312]

Please do the shallow tub and duckweed only treatment.  Underbed boxes like this  have the ideal depth of six inches.  If the floatiness comes from a gut gas problem, the duckweed handles it.  If it comes from obesity, the duckweed and the increased exercise that the shallow tub seems to encourage may help.  Floatiness rarely comes from a bacterial problem unless the fish shows other symptoms. 

 

If the video shows his usual behavior, I'm not terribly concerned.  He can swim just fine and seems to have control of his balance if he chooses to.  This tank looks very deep -- maybe 2 feet?  While I have fancies thriving in my deepest pond (30"),  I wouldn't put one that had buoyancy problems in more than 12 inches.  I have seen fish that appeared to enjoy tipping upside down for a while and did this only occasionally.  Poke them and they're cured.  The little lemon and white fish bottom sitting worried me more.

 

I would like to see some pre-change parameters, particularly nitrate, since I have a couple of fish that think they should be nitrate detectors and flip over when the nitrate gets a little high.  I put them in a hospital tub (with duckweed, of course) and they recover within a few hours.  Correct their home tank nitrate, return them, and they remain upright.

[jenzaar 11,605]

He looks quite lethargic being held out of water so long in comparison to Myrtle, who seems vigorous and flappy, but maybe that's his temperament or maybe the floaty issues at work. Hope he gets better! He's very pretty! He's shaped like my Citrine.

 

Thanks MG.

He's never really fought too much on handling, at least I don't recall. Should have used my ranchu - the friendly fish

[jenzaar 11,605]

If his floating worsened with no triggers then I'd assume an infection, too. Please try a two week course of metro and kanaplex together in the shallow tank - daily water changes, warm water, no salt, light feeding okay?

If that doesn't fix it then we can assume it is congenital and has worsened since you've already tried green foods. Did you ever fast him?

Not a formal fasting - but I haven't fed them since their Saturday morning peas? Does that count  

 

Please do the shallow tub and duckweed only treatment.  Underbed boxes like this  have the ideal depth of six inches.  If the floatiness comes from a gut gas problem, the duckweed handles it.  If it comes from obesity, the duckweed and the increased exercise that the shallow tub seems to encourage may help.  Floatiness rarely comes from a bacterial problem unless the fish shows other symptoms. 

 

If the video shows his usual behavior, I'm not terribly concerned.  He can swim just fine and seems to have control of his balance if he chooses to.  This tank looks very deep -- maybe 2 feet?  While I have fancies thriving in my deepest pond (30"),  I wouldn't put one that had buoyancy problems in more than 12 inches.  I have seen fish that appeared to enjoy tipping upside down for a while and did this only occasionally.  Poke them and they're cured.  The little lemon and white fish bottom sitting worried me more.

 

I would like to see some pre-change parameters, particularly nitrate, since I have a couple of fish that think they should be nitrate detectors and flip over when the nitrate gets a little high.  I put them in a hospital tub (with duckweed, of course) and they recover within a few hours.  Correct their home tank nitrate, return them, and they remain upright.

 

Would you settle on nori? I have tried duckweed 3 or 4 times now, and I just can't keep the stuff alive. I swore it off my last try.

The tub I have is one of those cement mixing tubs from Home Depot. It's around 6" tall and says 9 gallons, though I have never paid attention to what actually fills it.

 

That's not really his normal behavior. I wouldn't say he's been a robust fish, but his swimming seems more labored than usual to me. The upside-down, using plants for an anchor thing is new.

 

The tank is just under two feet - I believe 19"

 

(the fish on the bottom is Betty. I think I have an old thread on when that started. She's just a blind old bat. I imagine she crochets while listening to her shows, complains about the noise, and occasionally joins the girls for mah-jong. But that's not really what you were asking. )

 

And I will test nitrates mid-week and report those back to you. 

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

If you haven't fasted him yet I agree I'd like to try that in the shallow tank first. Floaters can be worsened with any sort of blockages, but I don't think green food alone will make enough of a difference. If you can get your hands on some sea veggies then try it, otherwise give him a four day fast on the shallow water and report back.

I'm confused on the water parameters again. So you do or don't know what they were running normally before the water change?

I will still recommend the aforementioned antibiotic course if the fasting doesn't kick the floating, but try that first. That and soft green aquatic plant food are really the first line of defense for floaters. I'm not a fan of peas, personally

[jenzaar 11,605]

If you haven't fasted him yet I agree I'd like to try that in the shallow tank first. Floaters can be worsened with any sort of blockages, but I don't think green food alone will make enough of a difference. If you can get your hands on some sea veggies then try it, otherwise give him a four day fast on the shallow water and report back.

I'm confused on the water parameters again. So you do or don't know what they were running normally before the water change?

I will still recommend the aforementioned antibiotic course if the fasting doesn't kick the floating, but try that first. That and soft green aquatic plant food are really the first line of defense for floaters. I'm not a fan of peas, personally

 

There are all sorts of things that made no sense while I was posting! Will ban children, animals, and general life, from my room next time I start one of these.

 

All tests were done AFTER the water change. It wasn't until I was finished that I thought to check his belly and wondered if it wasn't a swim bladder thing. 

 

And what do you consider sea-veggie? duckweed only or could seaweed (or Emerald Entree even, I'd go that far) suffice? 

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

Duckweed, elodea, soft seaweed, hornwort, etc...

[jenzaar 11,605]

Duckweed, elodea, soft seaweed, hornwort, etc...

 

all my least favorite aquatic plants

Only for him (and two or three others, prob everyone who am I kidding)

 

I have seaweed, just ordered duckweed, and can see if my lfs has any anacharis or hornwort. 

[jenzaar 11,605]

(but he's fasting anyway for now right? Until when, if he started on Sunday?)

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

Yes, fast him first, through Thursday. But if he is prone to floating and bobbling it will only help to have him eating natural goldfish food

Edited December 13, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[jenzaar 11,605]

Here he is today... mostly upright, he does flop over but less than before.

 

not a happy guy though.

 

Duckweed apparently won't be here til after Christmas

[jenzaar 11,605]

and in his other form

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

Would you say this is unusually lethargic for him in general? He looks pretty bad to me in terms of behavior but some goldfish are more chill than others too. How much better or worse is the amount of upside down time in this shallower tank?

[jenzaar 11,605]

He is a chill fish, i think his fins have slowed him down but no, this is not normal for him.

Part of me wants to be optimistic and say maybe he is moping in his lonesome tub, but i dunno..

The upside down behavior is much better though. Maybe a 6/7 out of 10, where a few days ago I'd call it a 2 or 3?

[mjfromga 1,784]

Poor Biff. I remember you saying a while back that Kite was upside down too? Maybe there's something related? Hopefully he gets better. Seeing him upside down is sad.

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

He is a chill fish, i think his fins have slowed him down but no, this is not normal for him.

Part of me wants to be optimistic and say maybe he is moping in his lonesome tub, but i dunno..

The upside down behavior is much better though. Maybe a 6/7 out of 10, where a few days ago I'd call it a 2 or 3?

Let's keep fasting him for the agreed upon duration and then slowly introduce plant food and see if the floating ends up the same. With his behavior and that tight belly appearance I'm still going to recommend antibiotics though, which you can begin now if you so choose. He just doesn't look 'right' to my eye and the behavior is off. I think his diet and the shallow water is definitely a part of this equation but please add in the treatment course I described a few days ago, okay?

[jenzaar 11,605]

 

He is a chill fish, i think his fins have slowed him down but no, this is not normal for him.

Part of me wants to be optimistic and say maybe he is moping in his lonesome tub, but i dunno..

The upside down behavior is much better though. Maybe a 6/7 out of 10, where a few days ago I'd call it a 2 or 3?

Let's keep fasting him for the agreed upon duration and then slowly introduce plant food and see if the floating ends up the same. With his behavior and that tight belly appearance I'm still going to recommend antibiotics though, which you can begin now if you so choose. He just doesn't look 'right' to my eye and the behavior is off. I think his diet and the shallow water is definitely a part of this equation but please add in the treatment course I described a few days ago, okay?

 

 

What do you mean tight belly appearance? Something weird, or just "not bloated/fat/dropsied?" 

 

I have never used these meds before, so I'm going to read up a little. I may wait until tomorrow, if I don't have time to do another water change and figure out exactly how much water fits (and if I have no idea what I'm doing and need someone to hold my hand )

 

Poor Biff. I remember you saying a while back that Kite was upside down too? Maybe there's something related? Hopefully he gets better. Seeing him upside down is sad.

Yeah, she has been on and off for a long time. They've never been in the same water before, though I do share equipment between the tanks, but I'm sure hers is all swim bladder related. Common denominator could of course be food haha, at least at the onset, but otherwise I think it's just bad luck.

[Arctic Mama 3,626]

He looks bloated and tight, yes. Not pineconed but not the normal profile or even a fat fish. It's hard to describe but I know it when I see it, for lack of a better description. He just doesn't look comfortable and healthy overall, and especially combined with your own observations and the worsening of the floating that tips the scales.

The meds are easy - my preference is redosing them each day after a complete water change and continuing both together for 14 days. You shouldn't need any salt or epsom, and can feed lightly with plant foods for the duration of the treatment once the fast period is over. Warm water will help, I like to keep it between 76-78 during treatment unless the fish comes from an extremely warm tank already, in which case I will bump it up to 80. Aeration is very important so a good airstone, gentle powerhead, or trickling filter with no media is great. That and water quality are the primary keys during treatment.