Jump to content

Stubborn Gill Flukes


Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

I have a terribly stubborn case of flukes.  It is definitely flukes, I've taken gill samples and found them under the microscope.  I treated using the full suggested schedule listed on this forum for treating flukes with Prazquantel.  The fish seemed to be making progress as far as behavior, but during the last round of treatment, 2 fish began to bottom sit, 1 fish gulps at surface, and another swims into the outlet of the filter.  I had treated with aqua prazi powder and used .3% salt during the first two weeks of the treatment, but then slowly decreased salt for the next 3 weeks. I took another gill scraping today from just one of the bottom sitting fish (2 days after the last round of prazi) and still found flukes. 

 

Does anyone have any tried and true alternative methods to praziquantel or does anyone else have failed experiences with aqua-prazi powder specifically?  I want to avoid using something that doesn't kill the cycle, but I've got to nip this in the bud, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you!

 

Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank): 0
* Nitrite Level(Tank):  0 
* Nitrate level(Tank):  5
* Ammonia Level(Tap): .5
* Nitrite Level(Tap): 0
* Nitrate level(Tap):0
* Ph Level, Tank:  7.4
* Ph Level, Tap :  8.2
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?  API Liquid 
* Water temperature?  72
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 125 Gallons - 6 months
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 Hikari X-Large Sponge Filters and a Cascade 1000 (265 GPH)
* How often do you change the water and how much? Typically once per week 75%, but the last 5 weeks I have been following fluke treatment water change procedures of twice per week 75%.

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Two days, 75%
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 7 goldfish: 2 medium sized orandas, 1 small pearl scale, 2 small telescope eye, 1 large ranchu

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, Equilibrium for GH, Baking Soda for KH
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Soilent Green 2x per day and seaweed sheet snacks a few times per week
* Any new fish added to the tank? No
* Any medications added to the tank? Praziquantel
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Salted .3% for 2 weeks while treating with Aqua Prati
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? List all physical symptoms.
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? List all behavioral symptoms.  - Bottom Sitting, Gasping at Surface, swimming into the filter outlet stream

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Supporter

the powder you have purchased is fine. in fact, i prefer the use of powder over the liquid. sometimes, despite our best efforts, the presence of flukes can sometimes remain unresolved after a 5-6 week schedule.

 

have you considered salt dips? this is a highly effective way of ridding surface parasites.

 

usually, if i am to recommend a flukes treatment schedule, i will also recommend that the OP begin with salt dips. i have learned from the past that once a fish is stripped of it's slime coat, the prazi stands a better chance of working even on the most stubborn flukes. this may benefit your situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Helper

Agreed - next step is salt dips as Helen outlined. Many external parasite treatments work better coupled with dips of the fish can tolerate them. I'm sorry you're having fluke issues!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thank you for the advice.  When you say salt dip, you are referring to the 3% salt dip per the instructions here, correct?

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Saltbath.html

 

Also, when using the powdered form of prazi,  I find that it does not dissolve well and had read about using vodka to dissolve it, is this typically recommended?  I haven't found any hard negative information, but I don't know how alcohol would affect the prazi.  Any experience or thoughts?

 

I'm going to start the prazi schedule over again, except change more water and start them off with salt dips.  Fingers crossed.

 

Thank you for the advice!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Use this one (slightly updated): http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123280-salt-dip-procedure/

When I first did a dip it was a bit freaky for me, but I soon got use to them. In the beginning my fish would tilt over soon after putting them in. I would gently nudge them up and they would be okay for another minute or two. The first time my fish didn't stay in for the full five minutes, but at the second dip a day or two later they could handle being in the salt bath for five minutes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Regular Member

Also, when using the powdered form of prazi,  I find that it does not dissolve well and

Take my advice with a pinch of salt (haha), but here's a classic "Solid Gold" YouTube video that dissolves the powder with a special kind of soap

 

It may well be that the powder eventually dissolves just fine by itself (given that so many people have success by just adding the naked powder to their tanks).

 

Not a product endorsement, but I use Hikari PraziPro because it's already dissolved for you (it's a liquid).  I buy the 16oz bottle, and every 1oz treats 120 gallons.  There may be smaller bottles.  I have no idea if it works, because I have always used it prophylactically.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thanks.  I was just taking a mason jar with tank water.  Seal it up and shake the crap out of it.  Then let it sit for about an hour or so shaking it every 15 minutes or so.  By the end of the hour it's dissolved enough where it doesn't get stuck on the side of the tank.  I'd rather do that than use vodka or soap.  But I just don't know how effective the powder has been despite the good reviews and experiences that I have read.  I think the powder is more cost effective and for some reason (that still doesn't make sense to me) is that the powder works with salt and that prazipro does not.  But there has to be another reason why prazipro is a solution the way it is other than just making the praziquantel pre dissolved.

 

My latest approach has been salt dipping per the recommendations before adding prazi.  I switched to prazi pro (no salt in the tank) and have been dosing at 1.5x the recommended dose and increased my water changes to 100 (well really 99%).  Behaviorally the fish do not seem to be improving (still 3 fish intermittently bottom sitting, general lethargy, sleeping more often), but I haven't found any more flukes in the gill scrapings that I took a few days ago.  Maybe they just have some gill damage from the flukes.  They aren't on death's door or anything, but the improvement if anything seems slow.  Part of me wants to quarantine everyone in a smaller tank and sterilize all the filters and try to restart the cycle.   That's a last resort of course.  Doesn't seem to be getting worse, but 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I think the powder is more cost effective and for some reason (that still doesn't make sense to me) is that the powder works with salt and that prazipro does not.

PraziPro doesn't work with salt?  I have personally used it with salt, but only as a prophylactic.  I would be almost certain that if PraziPro doesn't work with salt, then praziquantel doesn't either, and there is no evidence for that.

 

My understanding is that PraziPro is simply praziquantel mixed with a solvent (to help it dissolve).  The ingredients are "Oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and < 5% praziquantel by weight."

 

Here is the wikipedia entry for the solvent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipropylene_glycol

 

Of course the instructions mention turning off any UV, and removing activated carbon (or stuff like Purigen, say), so that probably also applies for any praziquantel-based product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Helper

Through trial and error most of us have moved away from Prazipro use, to be honest. It's expensive and doesn't seem nearly as effective as powdered prazi at actually killing flukes, with multiple rounds still not yielding satisfactory results in some cases. If it is all someone can acquire that is fine but if they are willing to buy online or have a pond supply store locally the powdered prazi works beautifully and is much less finicky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Through trial and error most of us have moved away from Prazipro use, to be honest.

This is good information to have. I am really impressed that hamanishiki is taking gill scrapings and looking at them under a microscope! I could not do this (too scared). It would be great if there could be some independent scientific testing of the efficacy of these products. Or still useful if the manufacturers would make such results available to assist in making informed decisions.

It's expensive and

As the planted tank people say for fertiliser -- don't pay for water! So I agree that a pure powder is going to be the best value. I got my 16oz bottle of PraziPro for about $30 in the US, and that treats 2000 gallons. I'm unsure what volume of water the powder treats for the same $$$. Of course, none of this matters if the liquid isn't as effective (or worse, ineffective).

doesn't seem nearly as effective as powdered prazi at actually killing flukes, with multiple rounds still not yielding satisfactory results in some cases.

Again, experience is everything (to be clear, I have no confirmed experience with flukes). I also wonder whether people using the liquid would get "lazy" and not shake the bottle (it does say "shake vigorously" on the instructions). I remember spending ages being confused why my API nitrate test was showing undetectable nitrates (0ppm), until I discovered that you had to shake the second bottle. So I'm the first to put my hand up and celebrate my incompetence when it comes to following instructions.

If it is all someone can acquire that is fine but if they are willing to buy online or have a pond supply store locally the powdered prazi works beautifully and is much less finicky.

You are right, it's great that it is relatively easy to acquire these days! And affordability is key to give as many fish as possible a happy life. Edited by tharlow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

I think the powder is more cost effective and for some reason (that still doesn't make sense to me) is that the powder works with salt and that prazipro does not.

PraziPro doesn't work with salt?  I have personally used it with salt, but only as a prophylactic.  I would be almost certain that if PraziPro doesn't work with salt, then praziquantel doesn't either, and there is no evidence for that.

 

 

 

I totally agree that there should be no difference in the two (same chemical, same dosage).  Check out a couple of the threads on this forum about prazipro and salt use and you'll find that the Hikari stated their product is basically ineffective with any amount of salt.   In the prazi schedule pinned on the forum, it mentions using less salt with prazi... why?  Probably just experience and recommendations from the manufacturer.    

 

Only thing I can assume from others experience that the solvent + Praziquantel + salt = no good.   Collective experience trumps manufacturers recommendations since we are really the testers of the efficacy of these products when used with goldfish, but both experience and manufacturers recommendation say no salt.  Only thing pointing away from that logic is common sense... how could one praziquantel product be different from the other unless it's the other ingredients?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

Through trial and error most of us have moved away from Prazipro use, to be honest.

This is good information to have. I am really impressed that hamanishiki is taking gill scrapings and looking at them under a microscope! I could not do this (too scared). 

 

 

I'm too scared as well, I have my girlfriend do it and then I look at it under the scope.   She should've been a vet.  And we only scrape the ones that look like they are doing poorly (and are not the expensive ones) and usually only once every two weeks.  It's extremely interesting and probably going to be a life saver for these fish since we still know they have flukes despite a pretty extensive prazi schedule.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Check out a couple of the threads on this forum about prazipro and salt use and you'll find that the Hikari stated their product is basically ineffective with any amount of salt.

Truly scary! Thanks so much for that. I will have a search.

solvent + Praziquantel + salt = no good.

Exactly right. I actually researched that yesterday, but the chemistry is way over my head (even considering the relative simplicity of salt). If this is really true then the Hikari people should not be marketing PraziPro for marine aquariums (and it says fresh or marine on the bottle!). I will e-mail the Hikari customer support people.

Collective experience trumps manufacturers recommendations since we are really the testers of the efficacy of these products when used with goldfish,

Couldn't agree more. Since you're so handy with scalpels and microscopes I wish I could send you a bottle of PraziPro to trial, but our treasured companions are not to be experimented on. We just have to try to make informed decisions and do the best for our fish.

I must admit that I am running scared for a jar of the powder now. I'm currently using PraziPro without salt, but this is all very unsettling. But also good, because we all want the truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...