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Help please. Raised scales, ick, ammonia burn...


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She looks really good today. I won't say the ich is gone because I'm pretty bad at spotting small amounts but it's not easily visible.

Scales are almost back to normal (I am so happy, I'll be honest, I could cry). Still a teeny bit raised near the tail but looking better around the belly area.

I did not do a water change last night as the params were ok, so I just added Prime. Ammonia was present but only at around .25 and she seemed ok so I plan on doing a 100% this afternoon and redosing the water if you think that's what I should do.

 

I'm so sorry, I don't know how to resize photos.

 

image_zpsnd3gpu16.jpeg

 

Still very swimmy and hungry. Not a huge fan of the food but I think she eventually eats it all.

 

One thing I did notice, though, is that there is a very faint yet dark red spot about the size of a pencil eraser under a couple scales on her right side in the middle, below the lateral line. You have to look pretty hard to see it and it's not swollen nor are the scales raised around it. Whatever that is, is there a possibility the current medication will take care of it? Normally the first thing I'd do is get a picture but she's so active and you have to look at it at just the right angle to see it, I don't think a photo would help.

 

I know I keep saying it, but thank you!

Edited by Emily
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She looks really good today. I won't say the ich is gone because I'm pretty bad at spotting small amounts but it's not easily visible.

Scales are almost back to normal (I am so happy, I'll be honest, I could cry). Still a teeny bit raised near the tail but looking better around the belly area.

I did not do a water change last night as the params were ok, so I just added Prime. Ammonia was present but only at around .25 and she seemed ok so I plan on doing a 100% this afternoon and redosing the water if you think that's what I should do.

 

I'm so sorry, I don't know how to resize photos.

 

image_zpsnd3gpu16.jpeg

 

Still very swimmy and hungry. Not a huge fan of the food but I think she eventually eats it all.

 

One thing I did notice, though, is that there is a very faint yet dark red spot about the size of a pencil eraser under a couple scales on her right side in the middle, below the lateral line. You have to look pretty hard to see it and it's not swollen nor are the scales raised around it. Whatever that is, is there a possibility the current medication will take care of it? Normally the first thing I'd do is get a picture but she's so active and you have to look at it at just the right angle to see it, I don't think a photo would help.

 

I know I keep saying it, but thank you!

Ok, yes...that all sounds good.  Keep going with all the meds and keep an eye on the spot.  The antibiotics will probably clear it.  I'm glad she is improving :)

Edited by Jared
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I'm sorry I haven't been keeping you posted. My schedule has been insane and she was doing really well... until yesterday.

 

I skipped a water change on Tues night b/c the parameters were acceptable, the ammonia wasn't quite at 0 but it wasn't quite .25 either so I put Prime in there and went to bed because I had worked a 14 hour day.

 

Yesterday morning, she was slightly "sulky," had huge red burns on the right side of her body and along her spine and her scales were starting to raise. I did a 100% change and added epsom. Last night I did another 100% change and added the epsom again along with the Ick Cure.

 

She's currently acting happy and super hungry (I'm still feeding medicated food) but the burns are still there, although the scales are relaxing.

 

Can she possibly be THIS sensitive to ammonia or could I be interpreting ammonia burns as something else? It's just weird b/c as soon as I do a few water changes, they go away within 48 hours or so. I added more filter floss in there but I don't know if that will make any difference. I have no idea how I'm going to get this tank to cycle at this rate.

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They're looking less and less like ammonia burns to me and more like something worse. I came home early to check on her and took these during the water change about 10 minutes ago. You can't see it in the pictures but her head especially looks likes it has a very thin whitish coating.

 

She's still eating, still swimming, still pretty active for a large fish.

 

image_zpsxpnbqeur.jpeg

 

image_zpszck2d2xi.jpeg

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Meds in Water:

Malachite since July 25th - 11 days

Epsom since July 27th - 9 days

 

Meds in Food:

Fed MetroPlex/Focus since July 28 - 8 days

Fed MetroPlex/Focus/SulfaPlex since July 29 - 7 days

 

So to break it down, it's a 20 gal tank and there is currently 1/2 tsp epsom in it as well as 10 ml Malachite. She's being fed the frozen antibiotic food mixture composed of MetroPlex, SulfaPlex, Focus, and her normal soaked pellets.

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Great, thank you.  How is she looking today.  Tell me all the concerning symptoms.

 

Let's keep going to 14 days with the Malachite Green.  What is the resting tank temperature?

 

Let's also keep the antibiotic food going to 14 days.  

 

Since you are dosing the antibiotics in food rather than in the water, you can go to daily 100% water changes if that will make you feel more confident that the water quality is staying within healthy parameters.  Just redose the Malachite Green and the Epsom Salt after each water change.

 

I would like you test the pH daily along with the Ammonia and nitrite to make sure it's not crashing. 

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My concerning symptoms are the large blood-red spots on her back end and spine.

She also has a bit of red streaking going on in her tail but it's not horrifying.

She is pineconing again :/ It's not drastic but it's definitely there.

 

The plus signs are she is super swimmy and a piggy. She gets frustrated when she can't fit any more food in her mouth. I figure as long as she's still trying, I'll keep trying.

 

How much and how often should I be feeding her? Right now I feed in the morning, the afternoon, and late at night.

 

And could you please give me the exact recipe again because I think it was given to me in pieces (bc I didn't have all the ingredients at the time) and I want to make sure I have the ratios right.

 

Can I feed her any veggies (peas/green beans) or anything to make sure she doesn't get "stopped up" or should the epsom be taking care of that?

 

I'll report with all params tonight before the water change and put them in my log.

 

Thank you for your help. She's the most interactive fish I've ever had and if I can save her it would mean a lot.

 

I'll do that 100% changes each evening, redosing the Malachite and epsom.

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Okay, Let's discontinue the Sulfaplex and just continue with the Focus + Metronidazole food per the Seachem instructions.  In addition, let's substitute in the oxytetracycline directly into the water per the package instructions.  Don't add it to the food.  Let's try a 10-day course.

 

Keep your current feeding schedule and let's not do any other foods for now.  

 

Keep the Malachite Green and Epsom Salt going as discussed.

Edited by Jared
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I'm home and am just finishing up a 100% change.

Before the change we had

Ammonia .25

Nitrate 0

Nitrite 0

pH 7.4 - I keep crushed coral in the filter.

Temp 74 - It usually rests around 74-76F)

 

I also got a stronger air pump and a bubble disc instead of a wimpy air stone. From what I understand, medicine can reduce the oxygen level in the water? Either way, I figured it couldn't hurt.

 

Her scales look better and the red seems to be getting splotchier, especially on her spine, like maybe it's starting to go away?

 

I know it's about to sound like I'm second guessing but all these medications have me a little freaked out :( 

 

The oxytetracycline looks a bit intense. Are we sure adding that (in the water, not the food) along with the Malachite and the Epsom and the Metro/Focus food will be ok? I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing... I'm just looking for reassurance, I guess. Thank you :heart

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I know it's about to sound like I'm second guessing but all these medications have me a little freaked out :(

 

The oxytetracycline looks a bit intense. Are we sure adding that (in the water, not the food) along with the Malachite and the Epsom and the Metro/Focus food will be ok? I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing... I'm just looking for reassurance, I guess. Thank you :heart

 

I understand.  I wouldn't have recommended the Malachite Green at the outset of the Ich, but since you had already started it, I decided to follow through.  It's not good to start and stop treatments.  Normally, I would have used salt and heat, but you were concerned about the dropsy which is understandable.

 

As for the antibiotics, here's the logic.  Most medicated foods on the market, including those we have used over the years with frequency and confidence, are a combination of 3 or more antibiotics.  There are two main reasons for this:  1)  Without a microscope, we don't know the exact bacteria we are fighting.  2)  There is a growing amount of bacterial resistance to certain antibiotics today.  Combining a few drugs, helps to cover both of these bases.  Since Metro Meds is no longer available, I had you make a homemade version.  Metronidazole is much more effective when it is fed to the fish then when added to the water.  I hope that explains what we've been doing here :)

Edited by Jared
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I am sure they're getting better. It's a slow process, but they're not nearly as alarming as they were. I guess what's bothering me was the relapse. She was doing so well and after I missed a w/c, it all went to heck again... but is healing at the moment.

 

Yes, I am currently feeding only the metro/focus mixture.

 

Before today's 100% change the readings were

Ammonia 2.0

Nitrate 2.5

Nitrite 0

pH 7.4

Temperature 74

 

I haven't added the oxytetracycline at all yet so once I've competed the w/c I'll dose with the Epsom again and I think we still have 2 or 3 days left with the Malachite. I'll continue to feed the metro/focus mixture unless you think I should add the SulfaPlex again.

 

Thank you!!

 

Edit: This was all in response to the post you made two posts ago, I didn't see your most recent one. Thank you for your explanations! It really does mean a lot. I was a Kok's regular for a long time and things have certainly changed.

Edited by Emily
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Yes and yes. I did the ammonia test twice. 2.0 is over twice as much as it was the night I missed the water change and we had to start back at square one... but last night she didn't seem to mind and I didn't notice any negative changes to her appearance. She seems to still be healing. I'll post parameters again before I change the water tonight.

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I just got home from work and her left side is looking a lot better and the red is completely gone from her spinal area, but there is a very bright red spot about the size of a dime on her right side, just in front of the tail.

 

I'll get the water readings to you and do the regular water change but I'm thinking it may be a good time to go ahead and add the tetracycline. I was hesitant about adding it when things were healing but now that there's something new...?

 

Just let me know if you think that's a good idea. Ugh :( :(

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Ammonia 1.0

Nitrate 0

Nitrite 0

pH 7.4

Temp 76

I don't even know what the heck is going on with my numbers. It shouldn't be possible and I even tested my tap water. My thinking is maybe I'm feeding too much frozen food and it's dirtying the water? Idk why I was reading nitates yesterday... and it was definitely there.

I did the daily full water change and added the tetracycline to the water because the spot is very bright and I was afraid to wait until tomorrow night to dose if you didn't have a chance to write back.

She seems to be handling it ok. Maybe a little less active than usual but nothing alarming.

Thank you again <3

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Ammonia 1.0

Nitrate 0

Nitrite 0

pH 7.4

Temp 76

I don't even know what the heck is going on with my numbers. It shouldn't be possible and I even tested my tap water. My thinking is maybe I'm feeding too much frozen food and it's dirtying the water? Idk why I was reading nitates yesterday... and it was definitely there.

I did the daily full water change and added the tetracycline to the water because the spot is very bright and I was afraid to wait until tomorrow night to dose if you didn't have a chance to write back.

She seems to be handling it ok. Maybe a little less active than usual but nothing alarming.

Thank you again <3

It could be that you are overfeeding.  Is she eating all the food or is some of it remaining in the tank?  Those ammonia levels are high and are going to hinder her progress if not kept in check. 

 

You mean Oxytetracycline, correct?

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Let's stop the Malachite Green and Epsom Salt after today.  I believe that will be 14 days for the MG and Magnesium (in Epsom) can interfere with Oxytetracycline's efficacy when added to the water.  Keep the Focus+Metroplex food going, but make sure she eats it all in 1-2 minutes and remove any uneaten food.

Edited by Jared
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