Dropsy almost cured, fluid rings around eyes remain

[misssmountain]

Hi all,

 

My fish Nacho (confirmed female) is sick! I just lost another fish a couple of weeks ago from dropsy symptoms that came on suddenly. I put him in a QT with meds but it was too late. At my next water change, I noticed Nacho was pineconing also! I moved her to a 10g QT and this is what I have done so far:

 

Wed 7/13 -- Moved to a QT tank with 1 tsp Epsom salt and 1 dose Metroplex, added PraziPro to the main tank

Fri 7/15 -- WC for the QT, replaced 1 tsp Epsom and 1 dose Metroplex

Sun 7/17 -- WC for the QT, since I hadn't seen any improvement I upped the Epsom salt to 2 tsp, added 1 dose of Metroplex, and 1 dose of Kanaplex

Tues 7/19 -- same as above, again added Prazi to main tank

Thurs 7/21 -- WC for the QT, scales are laying almost completely flat now, so I went back down to Epsom salt 1 tsp, 1 dose Metroplex, 1 dose Kanaplex

 

Tomorrow will be my last dose of Kanaplex, and I will continue with Metro for a few more rounds after that. I may discontinue Epsom at this point too since the scales aren't really pineconing anymore. The only symptom she still has is fluid rings/sacks around her eyes. She's gotten them on and off for a long time, but this time they really don't seem to be going away. Anything else I can do?

 

Test Results for the Following:

• • * Ammonia Level(Tank) - 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) - 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank)  - 10/15
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap)  - 0.5
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) - 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) - 5
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 8.0
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 8.2
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?  API Test Kit, liquid drops
    • * Water temperature?  Tank is at 78 degrees right now -- it's hot in SoCal!
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?  - 60g, since December 2014
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Penguin HOB 200 filter, Rena Filstar Large canister
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? - once a week, 80-90%
• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? I clean the tank every Tuesday or Wednesday, last change in the main tank was Tuesday, about 85%
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 Orandas, one about 6", one about 5", one about 4"
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? - Prime
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? I do a mix of sinking pellets (Hikari purple as base), frozen brine shrimp/bloodworms/emerald entree, NewEra gel food -- I feed a couple times a day, rotating between all of that
• * Any new fish added to the tank? - no
• * Any medications added to the tank? I added PraziPro after my last 2 water changes
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  I haven't had to treat the tank for anything in a very long time
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? pineconing (mostly gone now), fluid rings/sacks around eyes
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No, she is still eating and behaving normally

 

[Arctic Mama]

Can you get us a picture or video of her body and eyes?

Edited July 23, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[misssmountain]

Can you get us a picture or video of her body and eyes?

Sure. Will take some tomorrow when I change the water in QT.

[misssmountain]

Here are some pics...I guess her body does still look slightly pineconed

 

[Arctic Mama]

Yeah, it does look like the dropsy is unresolved. Definitely continue Epsom and metro. If nacho is improving I'd extend it another seven days for a 21 day round, which is about as long as we can stretch it. If you'd consider it won oxytetracycline food might be enough to knock the infection causing the dropsy. You can order it from here and feed it concurrently with the metro:

http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedAntibiotic.htm

It's the antibiotic II.

[misssmountain]

Yeah, it does look like the dropsy is unresolved. Definitely continue Epsom and metro. If nacho is improving I'd extend it another seven days for a 21 day round, which is about as long as we can stretch it. If you'd consider it won oxytetracycline food might be enough to knock the infection causing the dropsy. You can order it from here and feed it concurrently with the metro:

http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedAntibiotic.htm

It's the antibiotic II.

 

Thanks. Yeah, I didn't realize she was still a bit pineconed until I took the pics

 

Just to clarify, when I clean the QT today, I am doing the METRO for a total of 21 days, but discontinuing the KANA, as I have already done 4 doses/8 days worth. Is that correct?

 

I will look at that food...shipping looks expensive But I'll see if I can squeeze in an order before payday.

 

And looking ahead, what happens after 21 days if she's not better? What is your recommendation?

 

Thanks again!

[Arctic Mama]

Correct - continue the kanaplex for the minimum amount of doses, which I believe is indeed eight days. Then you can discontinue it and do the 22 day metro round with the oxytetracycline added in whenever it arrives.

The oxy powder is a little expensive but not bad and the food is cheap. The shipping is just usps priority mail, nothing too expensive even here in Alaska. But I did throw in some other items to meet the shipping order minimum. Well worth the cost since it is a hard medication to find locally though

[misssmountain]

Correct - continue the kanaplex for the minimum amount of doses, which I believe is indeed eight days. Then you can discontinue it and do the 22 day metro round with the oxytetracycline added in whenever it arrives.

The oxy powder is a little expensive but not bad and the food is cheap. The shipping is just usps priority mail, nothing too expensive even here in Alaska. But I did throw in some other items to meet the shipping order minimum. Well worth the cost since it is a hard medication to find locally though

Alrighty...I ordered a less expensive version of the flakes I found elsewhere. It looks comparable so hopefully it helps. Should be here Monday.

I'm a little hesitant to order more stuff and spend money right now because I'm feeling unsure of my future with fish keeping. It's been great, and I've learned a lot, but anytime I have to medicate/QT it's just so stressful and sometimes hard to watch and I'm just not sure if I want to keep going with it. I'll keep the two I have as long as I can, and of course nacho if she pulls through, but for now I'm not sure if I want to really get anything new or continue with this beyond what I have right now. Anyway, that could all change tomorrow, but right now I'm just like...blah.

[misssmountain]

Correct - continue the kanaplex for the minimum amount of doses, which I believe is indeed eight days. Then you can discontinue it and do the 22 day metro round with the oxytetracycline added in whenever it arrives.

The oxy powder is a little expensive but not bad and the food is cheap. The shipping is just usps priority mail, nothing too expensive even here in Alaska. But I did throw in some other items to meet the shipping order minimum. Well worth the cost since it is a hard medication to find locally though

Alright, I've finished the 3 weeks of metro. She's not pineconed anymore, but the scales are also not completely flat. She's eating the medicated food, but I've also noticed she isn't really active much. She'll perk up if I'm near the tank, but I just don't see her swimming around like she's 100%.

I don't feel like she's knocking on death's door, but I also know she is not well. As it stands, currently I don't feel comfortable putting her back in the big tank.

So, what to do? How should I move forward? I know it's a super personal decision and ultimately my choice, but just curious what anyone here would do?

[Arctic Mama]

Are you sure she has had enough of the medicated food? Can you link me to the one you ended up buying?

[misssmountain]

Are you sure she has had enough of the medicated food? Can you link me to the one you ended up buying?

 

I bought this one (the oxy one, not kanamycin):

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151222230764?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=450261308184&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Arctic Mama]

I can't read the feeding directions, what is the dose? 2% of body weight daily is standard but flake foods can make that harder to gauge. The reason I am asking is that if it was fed in sufficient quantity we can eliminate that treatment from use for awhile and assume it isn't going to help here, but if you under dosed it then we can do more days at the proper dose to see if it will still work. Make sense?

Basically I need to the dose and duration of that treatment to know how to proceed, since I'm not familiar with the brand

Edited August 4, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[misssmountain]

I can't read the feeding directions, what is the dose? 2% of body weight daily is standard but flake foods can make that harder to gauge. The reason I am asking is that if it was fed in sufficient quantity we can eliminate that treatment from use for awhile and assume it isn't going to help here, but if you under dosed it then we can do more days at the proper dose to see if it will still work. Make sense?

Basically I need to the dose and duration of that treatment to know how to proceed, since I'm not familiar with the brand

 

It doesn't seem to list a dose 

 

It does say to feed exclusively for 10 days, I don't know if that is helpful information?

[Arctic Mama]

Well that's stupid. They really need to specify, as underfeeding antibiotics means they're much less likely to be truly effective and actually cure the fish. Grr.

Use these instructions:

http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleFeedingMedFoods.htm

Extend the oxytetracycline round ten more days if you've been feeding it since Monday but in insufficient quantities compared to these instructions, okay?

[misssmountain]

Well that's stupid. They really need to specify, as underfeeding antibiotics means they're much less likely to be truly effective and actually cure the fish. Grr.

Use these instructions:

http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleFeedingMedFoods.htm

Extend the oxytetracycline round ten more days if you've been feeding it since Monday but in insufficient quantities compared to these instructions, okay?

 

I've been feeding this food exclusively and still see no improvement

[koko]

Hun may we have a full tank shot... Reason Im asking is this is #2 with Dropsy and Im thinking something in the main tank is doing this.

[Arctic Mama]

If the oxy and metro haven't kicked it the next step is a vet. What are the current symptoms remaining?

[misssmountain]

Hun may we have a full tank shot... Reason Im asking is this is #2 with Dropsy and Im thinking something in the main tank is doing this.

 

Hi there,

 

Technically this is #3 with dropsy One has already passed. 

 

Here is my tank. In case it's hard to see, it's a 60 gallon cube. I have a HOB filter, a canister filter, a bubble bar across the back, and artificial plants and rocks as my decor. There are also some foam-y floating lotus flowers in there too that have been in there for forever without a problem.

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by misssmountain

[misssmountain]

If the oxy and metro haven't kicked it the next step is a vet. What are the current symptoms remaining?

 

Only symptom remaining is that her scales are still not lying flat. Unfortunately I won't be doing any more vet visits. The closest fish vet to me that doesn't cost an insane amount of money is an hour away, and he's only there every other Saturday, which is a day I work. I went there once a long time ago with another fish, and while it was informative, I made the decision to draw the line at veterinary care in the future.

[Arctic Mama]

I totally understand and I have the same line for my fish.

Honestly if she is eating and swimming and everything is fine but some prickling, I'd release her back into the main tank and see how she does. :shrug:

Thing is, these sorts of infections aren't usually communicable, and if she is functioning well I'd assume she has kicked it and is dealing with some residual symptoms of fluid retention, not that she is on death's door, if you know what I mean. This may be the best it gets and seeing if she can tolerate being back with the other fish would be fine at this point. If she goes downhill again we can make decisions depending on how much time has passed (treatments may be repeated if there is a good break) or just let her live until her quality of life diminishes and then euthanize. But I don't see any further benefit of keeping her separate if some scale lifting is the only issue, all treatments have been exhausted, and the fish is otherwise behaving normally.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[misssmountain]

I totally understand and I have the same line for my fish.

Honestly if she is eating and swimming and everything is fine but some prickling, I'd release her back into the main tank and see how she does. :shrug:

Thing is, these sorts of infections aren't usually communicable, and if she is functioning well I'd assume she has kicked it and is dealing with some residual symptoms of fluid retention, not that she is on death's door, if you know what I mean. This may be the best it gets and seeing if she can tolerate being back with the other fish would be fine at this point. If she goes downhill again we can make decisions depending on how much time has passed (treatments may be repeated if there is a good break) or just let her live until her quality of life diminishes and then euthanize. But I don't see any further benefit of keeping her separate if some scale lifting is the only issue, all treatments have been exhausted, and the fish is otherwise behaving normally.

 

Okay. As you can see from my other recent threads, I have another one pineconing in my tank. I think I'm going to treat with colloidal silver per Koko's recommendation. Is it safe to still put her back in there, and just treat all of them?

[Arctic Mama]

You can treat that main tank with silver, it won't hurt her one bit to be in it. Remove the pineconer to the hospital tank once you've sterilized it and await further instruction on that fish. Make sense? If you want to treat the pine coning fish with silver do it in the quarantine, because we want to be able to observe that fish independently for the other thread.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[misssmountain]

You can treat that main tank with silver, it won't hurt her one bit to be in it. Remove the pineconer to the hospital tank once you've sterilized it and await further instruction on that fish. Make sense? If you want to treat the pine coning fish with silver do it in the quarantine, because we want to be able to observe that fish independently for the other thread.

 

Okay cool. So basically I am just switching places for these two fish, correct?

 

As I wait for the silver (arriving tomorrow), I'll add Epsom into the quarantine because I'm sure that can't hurt. Should I also add any metro or kana, or just wait on that?

[Arctic Mama]

Yes, they're switching places after it is cleaned. I'm not advising on your new thread so just wait for more details on medication aside from Epsom and silver. I believe Helen will be along to help you there.

[misssmountain]

Yes, they're switching places after it is cleaned. I'm not advising on your new thread so just wait for more details on medication aside from Epsom and silver. I believe Helen will be along to help you there.

Sounds good. Here is a pic I just took of this fish to give you a visual on how she's doing: