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gothicchick1100

Never ending mystery parasites

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Also I've just purchased a microscope, I was thinking I could take some scrapings to better determine what these parasites are, does anybody have any knowledge/experience of this?

 

yes, please do. is it the USB type microscope where the image shows on your screen or does it have a camera attachment? either way, it would be good to do a few examinations in hope to begin resolving your fish issues.

20160603_175156.jpg

This is the microscope I have, just a cheap one off eBay, I really don't know anything about it, haven't used one since school, I've also never taken scrapings, I have a book that explains it fairly well. Could you talk me through the way you do it?

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I'm in the process of uploading the video, my sound quality is not good on my phone so I figured I could explain with text instead.

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This request may sound strange, but would you please test your tap and tank water again so we can see if anything has changed?  If you have a water change scheduled today, please test the water before the change.

 

Test Results for the Following: 

 

•* Ammonia Level(Tank)

•* Nitrite Level(Tank)

•* Nitrate level(Tank)

•* Ammonia Level(Tap)

•* Nitrite Level(Tap)

•* Nitrate level(Tap)

•* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 

•* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

 

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

I'll test tomorrow when I'm home and post results.

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Sorry i've been quiet, had a lot going on. Sebastian appears to have fully recovered (almost). Excess slime coat is gone, fins are healing, no bottom sitting and dorsal is always up. I've still got him in the hospital tank just to make sure. I cleaned out my canister at the weekend, it was filthy so likely that was some of the problem, as it was so gross i had to clean it all, which of course meant I lost some bb, tested my water yesterday and had some ammonia so I done a big WC, and it tested fine today. The trouble i have now is still occasion sitting fish. I do feel it seems definitely improved though, I think I need to get parameters back under control and see what happens after that. How often do you guys clean out your canisters? And when should I return Sebastian to the main tank? Shall I try and rectify this problem before returning him? As he's actually fine.

Edited by gothicchick1100

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Glad to hear Sebastian is doing well.

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OK so things have somewhat improved, 3 of fish always seems to sit at night, and it takes a while for them to come round when the lights are turned on, there is still some occasional sitting but I believe it's less, the sitting seems to be more from my black ranchu than anyone else. My other ranchu still has the white areas on his tail, should I do a salt dip for him and and the ranchu that sits the most?

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OK so things have somewhat improved, 3 of fish always seems to sit at night, and it takes a while for them to come round when the lights are turned on, there is still some occasional sitting but I believe it's less, the sitting seems to be more from my black ranchu than anyone else. My other ranchu still has the white areas on his tail, should I do a salt dip for him and and the ranchu that sits the most?

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Glad to hear that there is some improvement.  My recommendation of a salt dip was for the orange fish in post #35 with all of the external white spots and slime.  That fish appears to be a fantail?  

 

As for the Ranchus, I would need to see a current picture of the one with the tail issues to determine treatment.  For the bottom sitting ranchu, I don't recommend a salt dip unless there are external symptoms that warrant it.  This fish might be better treated in QT as there could be an internal infection.

 

Salt dips are to remove external parasites, strip the slime coat and disinfect external bacterial lesions.  They will not help with internal issues.

Edited by Jared

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OK so things have somewhat improved, 3 of fish always seems to sit at night, and it takes a while for them to come round when the lights are turned on, there is still some occasional sitting but I believe it's less, the sitting seems to be more from my black ranchu than anyone else. My other ranchu still has the white areas on his tail, should I do a salt dip for him and and the ranchu that sits the most?

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Glad to hear that there is some improvement. My recommendation of a salt dip was for the orange fish in post #35 with all of the external white spots and slime. That fish appears to be a fantail?

As for the Ranchus, I would need to see a current picture of the one with the tail issues to determine treatment. For the bottom sitting ranchu, I don't recommend a salt dip unless there are external symptoms that warrant it. This fish might be better treated in QT as there could be an internal infection.

Salt dips are to remove external parasites, strip the slime coat and disinfect external bacterial lesions. They will not help with internal issues.

OK I see, yes that's the fantail, he's doing great, still in quarantine but all of those symptoms have gone and he is active. The ranchu (possibly lion head?) with the tail problems is the orange one in the pictures at the beginning of the thread. His tail looks the same now as it does there, however it has periods where it will sometimes looks better then it'll flare up again. He always used to be a bottom sitter but he's actually perked up a lot just recently and I've not seen him sit at all. I think there is also pictures of my black (bottom sitting) ranchu at the beginning of the thread, he has no other visible symptoms, just has periods of inactivity.

Is it possible for a fish to have bacterial infections for months and not get any worse or die? I just ask because my 5 oit of 6 fish have been sitting since at least December last year if not before, and they never get any worse, same thing of usually swimming up when disturbed, but just hovering above the bottom the rest of the time, there is never any loss of appetite either, when disturbed they behave like normal healthy fish. I find it so hard to understand.

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Edited by gothicchick1100

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Just to mention. The black ranchu was suffering with split fins at the beginning (in the pictures) but they have all healed now.

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So, we are talking about the Chu in the first picture of post #2, I believe.  If his tail still has those white spots, I would try a salt dip.  

 

Fish can carry bacterial infections for quite sometime, but it is unusual for all of the fish to have them concurrently.  Do they seem to bottom sit less when you fast them?

 

If you think they have an internal parasite or bacterial infection, you might try metronidazole.

 

On a side note, I would stop the freeze dried tubifex worms as they can cause digestive problems. 

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So, we are talking about the Chu in the first picture of post #2, I believe. If his tail still has those white spots, I would try a salt dip.

Fish can carry bacterial infections for quite sometime, but it is unusual for all of the fish to have them concurrently. Do they seem to bottom sit less when you fast them?

If you think they have an internal parasite or bacterial infection, you might try metronidazole.

On a side note, I would stop the freeze dried tubifex worms as they can cause digestive problems.

It depends, sometimes they bottom sitting when fasting, sometimes it improves it slightly.

I've never done a salt dip before, always been a bit nervous as I've heard of people's fish dying from it, could you give me any advice on it so I feel a bit more confident?

I do have metronidazole, is it best made into a medicated food or into the water column?

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Edited by gothicchick1100

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SALT DIP
1. dissolve 30 teaspoons salt/gallon of water (30 grams/Liter, or 113.7g/gallon). This concentration is 3%. Let it match the temp/pH of the tank, and make sure to add de-chlorinator. You can also use tank water, but because you are adding a lot of salt per gallon, you will need to heat up the water. Hence, it's crucial that you cool it back down.
2. prepare a holding tank. This is a tank that is pH/temp matched with the main tank, and has been de-chlorinated. This can be a 5 gallon tub, with bubblestone, or something bigger.
3. make sure you have some sort of timer
4. gently lift the fish out of the tank, and place into temp/pH matched salt solution.
5. start timer.
6. if the fish stays continues to stay upright, or tilts over but can get back up, keep him/her in the salt solution for exactly 5 minutes.
7. remove fish from the salt, and place in holding tank. The reason why we do this is to: 1) give the fish a place to recover by him/herself, and 2)to let the fish purge out ammonia/wastes in a place that is not the main tank.
8. if the fish starts to lose balance and cannot get back before the minutes, remove him/her and place in holding tank, as described in #6.
9. after 1-2 hours, the fish can be moved back to the main tank. He/She might still be disoriented, but should be fine.

 

You can also start with a 1% dip (10 Teaspoons per gallon) to see how the fish tolerates it.  Then, try a 2% dip (20 Teaspoons per gallon).  Then a 3% dip :)

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If you are treating multiple fish, it is easier to use a water borne metronidazole treatment.  It's hard to get equal amounts of metro food to multiple fish in one big tank.  However, metronidazole is much more effective when fed.  What might be a good idea is to put one fish (with the most concerning bottom sitting symptoms) in a QT and feed it Metro food.  If it shows improvement, you have your answer and can go from there with the other fish.  

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So just done salt dips for both Sebastian (fantail) and cloud (lionhead) Sebastian lasted the full 5 mins, no tilting/listing or anything. Cloud only lasted just over a minute, he kept listing on his side and couldn't right himself. I've got both fish in the storage container at the moment, both seem fine. Will a minute have been long enough to do it's job? If not is it wise to attempt it again for longer?

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Usually if you repeat the dip after two days of recovery, the fish will last much longer.  People have reported fish that rolled over in 30 seconds on the first dip and lasted 5 minutes on the second.

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OK I'll try again in a few days. Everything has been pretty good with the main tank, i haven't seen any bottom sitting in the main tank (also the second a fish goes to the bottom I get nervous because I don't want it to start happening again ????)

I've been doing two water changes per week.

Sebastian's (fantail) white bit on his mouth did disappear but has since reappeared, I'm wondering if the salt dip may help with this? Is it necessary to do a second one for him?

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OK I'll try again in a few days. Everything has been pretty good with the main tank, i haven't seen any bottom sitting in the main tank (also the second a fish goes to the bottom I get nervous because I don't want it to start happening again )

I've been doing two water changes per week.

Sebastian's (fantail) white bit on his mouth did disappear but has since reappeared, I'm wondering if the salt dip may help with this? Is it necessary to do a second one for him?

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Glad to hear about the main tank.  See how this first dip works on Sebastian's mouth and we can decide if it is prudent to do a second one.  He seemed to tolerate it well, so you can probably do another one in a couple of days.

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So I've repeated the salt dips on both fish, Sebastian done 5 mins really well, his white mouth is still there but it's a tiny area, so is looking better. Cloud managed to do 4 minutes, his white bits on his fins are slightly better but still very much there. What else should I do? I've also noticed some stringy white poo in the tank.

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So I've repeated the salt dips on both fish, Sebastian done 5 mins really well, his white mouth is still there but it's a tiny area, so is looking better. Cloud managed to do 4 minutes, his white bits on his fins are slightly better but still very much there. What else should I do? I've also noticed some stringy white poo in the tank.

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I would continue with the salt dips if they are helping.  

 

If the fish are  looking active and healthy, I wouldn't worry about the string poo.  If it becomes constant, try to identify which fish is expelling it.

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What is the maximum number of salt dips i can do?

Interesting observation today, been very busy with work so done a water change later than I should (only by about 2 days) do I done a water change yesterday and doing another one today, already my fish have started sitting again. I'm hoping the water change today is sorting them out, water quality is fine though so what is it in the water that's causing the sitting? They were perfectly fine when I was doing twice a week before.

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Just done salt dips again, both fish done 5 minutes. And always seem perfectly fine after, the white areas on the fins are still there, do I keep doing regular dips to get them gone completely? Or is it possible they may never go.

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What is the maximum number of salt dips i can do?

Interesting observation today, been very busy with work so done a water change later than I should (only by about 2 days) do I done a water change yesterday and doing another one today, already my fish have started sitting again. I'm hoping the water change today is sorting them out, water quality is fine though so what is it in the water that's causing the sitting? They were perfectly fine when I was doing twice a week before.

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I had a Black Moor that would sit after water changes and then snap out of it a while after.  It makes me think that some fish are more sensitive to large water changes and possibly rapid changes in water depth.

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Just done salt dips again, both fish done 5 minutes. And always seem perfectly fine after, the white areas on the fins are still there, do I keep doing regular dips to get them gone completely? Or is it possible they may never go.

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I think the salt dips have helped, but may not be a permanent solution in this case.  Would you be interested in trying to treat the one fish with the white on the fins in a separate quarantine tank?  

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Just done salt dips again, both fish done 5 minutes. And always seem perfectly fine after, the white areas on the fins are still there, do I keep doing regular dips to get them gone completely? Or is it possible they may never go.

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I think the salt dips have helped, but may not be a permanent solution in this case. Would you be interested in trying to treat the one fish with the white on the fins in a separate quarantine tank?
That definitely sounds like a good idea, what is the best course of action? This morning my black ranchu has split fins again, is this just a response to stress from a big water change? It surely can't be flukes as I've treated so many times, everything has gone to pot because of the delayed water change lol.

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