Red area on goldfish side, a few raised scales (warning: big image)

[Kim S Walker 1]

Haha! I didn't mean to scare anyone. I meant 0.1% salt treatment, not 1.0%! Sorry about that. (that is what I get for posting after a long day.) 

[shakaho 6,312]

 

For Diamond, I will research salt dips. I have swabbed the lesion with hydrogen peroxide twice now and it hasn't seemed to make any difference. Is there a recommended schedule I should try? I do see some mild improvement when I add Melafix to the tank. I wasn't sure how long I could use it though.

 

Did you read the link for salt dips?  You do a series of salt dips at every other day intervals.  The 3% salt dip works best, but for the greatest safety, you can start with a 1% dip, then a 2%, and then a 3%, increasing the salt concentration only if the fish tolerated the previous dip well.  Melafix doesn't do much, but don't use it along with other medications.

 

For Kukurri, if I was going to combine metro and triple sulfa, how would I go about doing that? Would I do a course of one, and then a course of the other? Or would I combine them?

 

You combine them, using the recommended dose of each one.  They attack different types of bacteria and you don't know what kind infects your fish.

 

Since I have the triple sulfa on hand and couldn't pick up the metro today, I've started the triple sulfa + 1.0% salt solution in a 15 gallon quarantine tank as recommended by the LFS just because I feel I have to do something. I'm watching him carefully, and so far so good. He looks perky and happy and still pineconed on one side.

 

If you want to follow the LFS advice, I can't advise you.  I have never heard of curing a pineconed fish with salt and sulfa, but it's your choice. 

 

I can also get the metro tomorrow if needed. Do we ever use epsom and salt together? 

 

Never.  0.1% salt soothes minor surface wounds.  Epsom salt reduces swelling.  If you plan to use what I recommended, start with a 100% water change.

 

 

I asked the LFS why they recommend salt rather than epsom in this case and they said because Kukurri's pineconing and swelling is asymmetrical, they suspect a cyst or tumor or localized infection rather than general systemic bloating. Also, no sign of constipation. They said they've found the salt helps the fish absorb the medication from the water and of course for all the usual reasons we use salt. That does sound good to me, but I haven't dealt with this before so I have no idea. I'm just trying to learn and I have a general policy that the more information the better. I certainly wasn't looking for an argument, just some reasoning that would help me decide which course makes the most sense in my situation. 

 

As I said, you can use any advice you wish, but PLEASE do not combine our treatment with any other treatment.  You can kill fish that way.   In goldfish, cysts, tumors, and egg retention can cause bloating, but the scales don't usually raise.

 

BTW, there is a brief video of each of them a few posts back in this thread which might give you a better idea of their condition. I'd also love to know if anyone can actually view them. 

 

Yes, I see the pineconing.  You can see it best from the top, so you might take a video looking down at the fish.

[Kim S Walker 1]

 

 

Never.  0.1% salt soothes minor surface wounds.  Epsom salt reduces swelling.  If you plan to use what I recommended, start with a 100% water change.

 

Would there be any harm in going from a 0.1% salt solution, to an epsom solution with a 100% water change? 

I would have done triple sulfa + epsom last night (since I didn't have the metro) but no one had said those two were compatible. I really am trying to follow directions. Please be patient with me. I'm very worried for the fish.

 

I can pick up the metro today. Just to confirm, I could use the regular dose of triple sulfa + the regular dose of metronidozole + epsom. It looks like the metro course is expected 15 days minimum. The triple sulfa package says 4 days (LFS recommeded 6 days).

 

This morning Kukurri is happy and hungry and active. Pineconing the same.

[shakaho 6,312]

Actually, I should have checked your tap and tank pH before recommending a 100% water change.  They are quite different, so we will do a smaller change.  Keep the volume of your QT to 10 gallons for ease in dosing.  

 

NOW --  Remove all but 5 gallons of water from the  QT.

 

Fill a 5 gallon bucket with water, add Prime and 1/4 teaspoon of epsom salt.  Add this water to the tank.

 

WHEN YOU GET THE METRO --  remove 5 gallons of water from the tank.  

 

Add to your 5 gallon bucket of fresh water: Prime for 10 gallons,  one dose of Triple Sulfa, metro for 10 gallons, and 1/4 teaspoon of epsom.  Add the treated water in the tank.

 

You will have to do a 50% daily water change and feed lightly to avoid ammonia accumulation.  Prime will protect the fish for up to 1 ppm ammonia.

 

When you do these water changes, you will have to replace the medication you removed.  This gets a little tricky when the medication comes in packets for treating 10 gallons and you replace 5 gallons of water.  

 

This seems easiest to me:  

 

To a container of with a lid, add metro and triple sulfa for ten gallons and 1/4 teaspoon of epsom.  Measure the water you will dissolve this in (for example, a quart), put it in the container and shake until dissolved.

 

Remove half of the solution and put it in the 5 gallon bucket.  Add Prime for 10 gallons and fill the bucket.  Use this for your 5 gallon water change.  Put the rest of the solution in the refrigerator for the next water change.

 

I know this may get confusing.  Please ask about anything you don't understand.

Edited October 1, 2016 by shakaho

[Kim S Walker 1]

Thanks Sharon, this is brilliant and so helpful! I was trying to wrap my head around the measurements and you've made it very easy.

I set everything up marked with 5 and 10 gallon markers. I have a jar for the meds that holds about 3 cups, so I marked it with markers for 1 cups and 2 cups plus air for mixing. I'll mix the meds in there and use it as you suggested. I tried it just now and it worked great!

Since the quarantine tank was set up with half existing tank water and half treated tap water, I did the same again to 10 gallons and added the new meds, epsom, prime and buff it (that I always use since i have soft water) I checked that all the parameters matched and that the ammonia and nitrites are still at zero in the quarantine. I was surprised actually, I expected a little, but I haven't been feeding him much either. I transferred him gradually, mixing the water in a pitcher, as if acclimatizing a new fish from the store and he went in with flying colors. Tomorrow I'll do a 5 gallon water change as you suggested with fresh meds.

We are having a heat wave, so everything is 82 degrees at the moment. I suppose that is good. It does make the temperature easy. I have a heater set up to keep it stable when the weather cools back down.

Current measurements:

Ph 8.0

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 20 approximately

Unfortunately, the pineconing looks a little worse and is more even now rather than being all on one side like it was yesterday. I took pictures and will post them as soon as my husband comes back home with the camera. I'm keeping hope since he's still active and hungry and acting like nothing is wrong. Keep it up Kukurri!

Keeping my fingers crossed and thank you for being patient with me

(I'm a little worried about how much to feed him. I don't want to starve the poor guy! Is there a good way to estimate without weighing him? If you want to talk me through it, I could probably weigh him, I do have a small digital scale.)

Edited September 27, 2016 by kimbeloo

[Kim S Walker 1]

sorry, double post.

Edited September 27, 2016 by kimbeloo

[Kim S Walker 1]

Ok, brief update. 50% water change today. It all went really well although I am being pretty anal so it takes me forever. I suppose it'll get quicker as I go along. Kukurri is doing great, still active, eating happily, dorsal fully up. I think he enjoys all the attention.   I might be imagining it at this point but the pineconing seems the tiniest bit less today. I'll take pictures tomorrow if there seems improvement. I'll know better during daylight. He's definitely not worse.

 

I was looking up directions for making medicated food with the metro and the hikari site says to use pure grain alcohol. Has anyone done it without this? Or if this is the only way, where do I get some?

 

Also, I have enough triple sulfa for 9 days. Will that be enough? Or should I extend the sulfa treatment longer than that? I can pick up more if needed.

 

Thanks for the help!

[shakaho 6,312]

If you want to make medicated food, I suggest you use the gelatin method on the hikari site.  

 

Sulfa isn't the ideal antibiotic to use with metro.  If the symptoms haven't subsided in a week, you should get some oxytetracycline or oxy food and use that in place of the sulfa.

 

To weigh your fish, scoop him up in a container.  Weigh the container, remove the fish, and weigh the container and water.  Subtract to get the fish weight.

[Kim S Walker 1]

Kukurri update: Good news! I woke this morning and checked on Kukurri and found mostly flat scales! He looks so different. I can only find raised scales a tiny bit on the same side where I first noticed it and it is only a few. Still happy, eating and active! This is day 4 of metro, triple sulfa and epsom salt treatment. Can someone recommend how long I should continue the treatment after seeing improvement? I'm going to try taking photos now, but I don't have the better camera with me. I'll do the best I can.

 

Kukurri and I say think you for hanging in there with us!   You are all awesome!

 

Diamond update: On the other hand, our heat wave seems to have made Diamond's wound more active (if that is possible). The white bumps (pimples?) on the rear edge of the wound have been forming daily for the last 3 days and the rear edge is redder, almost looking like a gash. I posted a picture of two of the bumps back a few posts. I want to start salt dips for her, but have been too busy with Kukurri to start. Hopefully I can start treatment for her soon. Do we still think salt dips and peroxide is the best action to take for her? In case this is aggravated by a parasite, can I treat the main tank with Prazi again now too or wait until after salt dips? Diamond is also still happy, active and eating well.

[Kim S Walker 1]

Kukurri as of tonight (9/30/16) no raised scales that I can see!

 

Diamond with wound at base of tail

[shakaho 6,312]

Continue the metro for another week and the Sulfa until you've used it up.  We want to make sure we got all the bugs.

 

You can do salt dips and topical treatment of the lesion while treating the tank with prazi.  Two weeks of continuous treatment with prazipro should handle any flukes.

Edited October 1, 2016 by shakaho

[shakaho 6,312]

Do you have access to a microscope?  Scraping the lesion and examining the scrape microscopically could provide a diagnosis.

[Kim S Walker 1]

I don't know. I could probably borrow one from my kids' school...

 

I'll definitely continue all the meds as suggested. I'm going to get my husband to help me with a salt dip today. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edited October 1, 2016 by kimbeloo

[Kim S Walker 1]

I haven't done the salt dip yet, but one of the white bumps burst and I got a picture for you. It has a piece of filmy white tissue hanging from it. 

 

And this is an OLD photo of Kukurri from a few days ago. if you compare this to the last one you can see how much he has improved!

[shakaho 6,312]

I would like you to get this product for treating Diamond's lesion.  

 

The routine to follow:

 

Salt dip

Recovery container until the fish "acts normal"

Hydrogen peroxide swab

Biobandage apllication

Recovery container to make sure the bandage stays on

Back to tank.

[Kim S Walker 1]

great, thanks Sharon! The biobandage is on order.

How often will I treat?

[shakaho 6,312]

Do the dips every other day.

[Kim S Walker 1]

I'm wondering, would the silver that Koko recommends be a good thing in the main tank while this is healing? Or is it not compatible with Prazi?

[koko 14,335]

I'm wondering, would the silver that Koko recommends be a good thing in the main tank while this is healing? Or is it not compatible with Prazi?

I have never used it while prazing I dont know

[Kim S Walker 1]

 

I'm wondering, would the silver that Koko recommends be a good thing in the main tank while this is healing? Or is it not compatible with Prazi?

I have never used it while prazing I dont know

 

Hmm, well I assume the Prazi is more important at this point in case this is caused by a parasite? The tank has only had one 6 day dose of Prazi. I kind of want to wait on the Prazi until Kukurri is back in the tank. He won't be finished with his meds until Friday. Unless you feel strongly that I should start Prazi before then, I'll wait until next weekend to start the Prazi treatment. We did the first salt dip for Diamond (1%) and peroxide on the wound tonight. She's taking it well so far. I hope I'm right I should do 2% salt dip tomorrow, and 3% the day after, then every other day at 3% from then on?

 

I ordered the biobandage but they didn't have fast shipping, so it looks like it'll take about a week to get here.

 

Thank you for all the help!

[shakaho 6,312]

I don't recommend using silver during the prazi treatment, but you can certainly use it after the other treatments.  I don't understand delaying the prazi treatment.  You can treat both the main tank and the quarantine tank.

 

Yes, that's how you do the salt dips, assuming she tolerates the 2% dip for 5 minutes, which I expect of a big healthy fish.  If not, repeat the 2% dip until she doesn't tip over through the full 5 minutes.

[Kim S Walker 1]

Oh! I didn't know I could add the prazi along with the metro and triple sulfa. I don't mind doing that at all if the three are compatible.