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karens

Black Moor and Oranda Bottom Sitting

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Hi All,

 

My four year old Black Moor and 3 year old Oranda have been bottom sitting on and off for more than two weeks now. The Moor started and then the Oranda the last week.They readily come to eat and are showing no visible disease that I an see. The only change I've made recently was to replace the gravel substrate with river rock in January. The Oranda was choking on and ingesting the smaller gravel. I bought rock approved for aquarium and boiled it well before placement. I also place soft material fake plants but these too are made for aquarium use. The only thing I can think of is that they may be constipated or that I'm over feeding. I fed them peas yesterday. They get them every four or five day normally. Diet as follows: Omega One sinking pellets every other day rotated with cooked brocolli, cooked peas, cooked shrimp and oranges.

 

Tank Perameters:

Ammonia: 0 ppm

pH: 7.5

Nitrate: 15 ppm

Nitrite: 0 ppm

• perform 45-50% water changes weekly - use Seachem Prime

• filter cleaned every 5 to 6 weeks

• good aeration

• water temp.: 70 ºF   21 ºC

 

I'm racking my brain here. I'd really appreciate some help. I recently lost a beloved cat unexpectedly to cancer and DON'T want to lose my fishy friends!

 

Much appreciated, Karen

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I know you help with some of the information but if you can please fill this out. This will help us better to understand everything, plus if you can get us some photos or a video :)

 

Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
      • * Water temperature?
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
      • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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Sorry to hear about your cat. Hope your goldfish feel better.

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I'm so sorry about your fishies and the loss of your cat. You are in good hands here!

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    • Hi,
    • Here is the requested info, but after watching both fish today I think the Oranda is swelling and starting to pine cone. Both fish continue to bottom sit for hours a day but readily come to eat. The Oranda will swim a bit, glide and then rest on the bottom. The Moor looks the same as always
    •  
    • * Ammonia Level (Tank)  0
    • * Nitrite Level (Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)  5ppm

      * Ammonia Level (Tap)  0

    • * Nitrite Level (Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level (Tap) 0  
    • * Ph Level - low range (Tank) 7.6  
    • * Ph Level, low range (Tap) 7.6
    • * Ph Level, high  range (Tank) 7.8
    • * Ph Level, high  range (Tap) 7.6

      * GH range (Tap) 140

    • * GH range (Tank) 140

      * KH range (Tap) 90

      * KH range (Tank) 80

       

      Other Required Info:

      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?  Nutrafin Drops
      • * Water temperature?  21.5C / 70.7F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?  45 gallon - running for 3 years & 4 months 
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? EHEIM Classic 600
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% weekly
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 3 days ago, changed 50%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 Oranda - 3 yrs. old - 4.5 inches long, 1 Blackmoor - 5 yrs. old - 4.5 inches long
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Give the brand, type of food.  Feed 1 time daily, soaked Omega One pellets every other day, rotated with cooked peas, brocolli, shrimp (very occasionally) on other days, occasionally oranges
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No new fish. 
  • * Any medications added to the tank? No Meds currently being used. Or for more than a year.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. I treated the Blackmoor when I got her 4 years ago for Cloudy Eye and Fungus. She had been in a terrible tank. In January of 2014 she showed pine coning. I treated her for Dropsy for a number of months with too many drugs and then stopped to let nature take it's proverbial course. The Oranda was also in the tank with the meds. The moor hasn't been the correct shape after this issue but has been displaying healthy behaviour for the last year. I believe she's seriously compromised from her initial year in a terrible tank and my attempts to keep her alive last January. I've probably compromised the Oranda's health at that time as well. Meds: API Fungus Cure, API Melafix, API Pimafix, Seachem PolyGuard, Seachem Kanaplex. 
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Just sat and looked closely at the Oranda. He seems swollen with scales starting to pine cone. Very concerning. Oranda also has a white mucus on his head.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Both fish are bottom sitting for a number of hours a day. 

 

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Your maintenance program looks good, but I think you identified a problem when you pointed out that you had changed from gravel to river rocks.  That didn't impress me until I looked at the substrate in the pictures.  Most people that use river rock use a scattering of the rocks with bare space in between.  The fish like this because they can push the rocks around and sometimes find edibles underneath. 

 

When you have full covering of the bottom with rocks, the fish can't push them around and thus any edibles underneath rot.  If you vacuum every day, you can remove some of the fresh debris, but that which has settled in under the rocks doesn't come out. 

 

I would like you to do the following:

 

Remove the fish from the tank since you may stir up some nasty stuff.

 

Start at one end of the tank and remove the rocks, siphoning up debris as you uncover it. 

 

When you have all of the rocks out and the bottom clean, rinse the rocks and return 1/4 to 1/3 of them to the tank.  You want enough space between them so the fish can push them around as they forage and you can do the same when you vacuum. 

 

Top off the tank and return the fish.

 

The fish will probably perk up a bit when they find they can push those rocks around.  They look pretty healthy except for the slight lift the scales on the oranda.

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Thanks, I'll remove the majority of the rocks.

When I do my weekly water change I pull out any rocks that need to be rinsed of algae (1/4 to 1/2) and then vacuum all waste and debris from the bottom.

All rocks are moved in the process.

 

Any thoughts on the slight lift in the Oranda's scales?

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The fish look pretty healthy.  Unless it changes rapidly, the lifting scales don't seem like an emergency.  You can add a teaspoon of Epsom salt (MgSO4) to the tank to help reduce the swelling. 

 

Can you list what antibiotics you have on hand plus any you know you can get? 

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Yes please, let us know what medication you have access to. We can approach this several different ways :)

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Could you please get me a photo of your Telescope going from the back to the front. Something doesnt look right to me :o

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Regarding the meds I have on hand. I have Seachem Kanaplex, Focus, Metroplex and ParaGuard. 

 

On Wednesday evening I noticed the Oranda seemed to be swelling more so I added a dose of Kanaplex to the water and began feed him pellets soaked in Focus and Metroplex. As of this morning I've seen a reduction in swelling. His scales are still lifted slightly but he seems better. He's still bottom sitting though.

 

The Moor has been another problem. She was the one who began bottom sitting first, around two weeks ago. As I mentioned earlier she had all the symptoms of Dropsy in January of 2016, which I struggled with for three months. After three months I gave up and was going to let nature take it's course (preparing to humanely euthanize) but she survived on her own and has been fine until the bottom sitting issue now. Your question about her not looking right is correct. When the swelling came down in 2016 her shape never balanced out. One side of her is unusually rounded. Her health is definitely compromised.  I'll try and get a shot for you.

 

Regarding the last few days with the Moor. As she was looking better than the Oranda (no lifted scales or swelling) I didn't feed her medicated pellets. They're both in the tank so she's received the Kanaplex as well. I'm thinking I overfed her while trying to get the Oranda to ingest the medicated pellets. On Thursday morning she was stuck at the top of the tanks waterline. She couldn't swim down at all. By last night she was able to swim in all levels of the tank and I fed her a small amount of cooked peas (the Oranda got medicated pellets). Late last night she was stuck on the top again. This morning she was back down on the bottom and really not wanting to move at all.

 

Another note, I did a filter clean on Tuesday night. I usually do a clean every 5 to 6 weeks. This time I accidentally left it for 8 weeks. Too long! I hope this isn't a contributing factor.

 

I feel like I'm yo-yoing! I'd appreciate any help you could offer.  Best, Karen

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Sorry! One error in the last post. The Moor had Dropsy issues in January of 2015. Not this year.

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Sunday morning update. Both fish are definitely showing symptoms of Dropsy. The Oranda has swollen and his scales continue to lift. The Moor is swelling. Both a pretty much bottom sitting all the time now. I'm going to add the last Kanaplex treatment to the water today. I've added the teaspoon of Epsom salts and will continue to feed pellets soaked with Focus and Metoplex.

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That should work. If not, the dropsy is likely irreversible. I'd be hitting it with the metro and perhaps kanaplex as a last resort, given when you have on hand. In the future, please go with an oxytetracycline food, we are experimenting to see if that nails dropsy better than our current treatments. There is a Canadian supplier :)

http://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21_28261

The flame you need is the antibiotic flake II, with the oxytetracycline. Definitely worth having on hand for dropsy.

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