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Marijke Puts

Moor with eye damage

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Hi! I'm a long-time lurker but recently started having problems with my moor after multiple moves, so I figured it might be a good idea to make an account and ask the experts. Here's what's going on: I think he damaged his eye somehow, though I can't be sure. The eye is enlarged and cloudy (photo at the bottom of this post). As per the usual instructions, I kept a close eye on my water values (as close as possible - I'm not home on weekdays), did plenty of water changes and even added an extra canister filter so I could be extra sure no odd fluctuations were going on while I'm gone and my mother takes care of the fish. I expected the injury(?) to clear up relatively quickly, but it hasn't.

 

The fish has been bottom sitting on and off, though he does perk up during feeding time and when I'm moving around in front of the tank. The eye was at its biggest a few weeks ago and has improved a bit since then but remains cloudy and enlarged. The fish has been through some stress from having to be moved twice, so I'm thinking of some kind of internal bacterial infection that was able to develop due to the stress. Now here's the bad news: I live in The Netherlands and have not been able to find medicated food ANYWHERE. Just very expensive koi food that I suspect may not be suitable for goldfish. I do have a "normal" antibiotic available, JBL Ektol Bac.

 

Because large water changes, keeping things stress free, the extra filter etc. haven't done much and the fish is still bottom sitting, I'm now debating whether to use the antibiotic I have. I'm unsure because it's meant for external infections such as fin rot. I don't want to expose the fish to an ineffective medication, as antibiotics are obviously not something to just throw around whenever something is slightly wrong. My question here is: what do you guys recommend? Does my diagnosis seem correct?

 

Exact water values are coming in a bit! Though they obviously don't reflect the water values of the past weeks this has been going on.

  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Drop test kit.
    • * Water temperature? During the last few weeks it has slowly increased from around 17°C to around 20°C degrees due to Spring starting.
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 65 gallons, has been running for around three months.
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 1 internal Superfish Aquaflow 400L/h, 1 external Eheim 2213 440 L/h, recently added one Eheim Professionel 2224 700L/h. All contain plenty of biological filter media. Cleaning them is rotated: one every week.
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? Around 75-80% is changed every Sunday or Monday when I'm at home. 
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? This problem has been going on for a while, so this question isn't too relevant. I changed 75% 7 days ago, though, and will be doing so again in a minute.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? There are two large goldfish in the tank. One full-grown Demekin and the sick fish, a slightly longer-bodied Moor. I don't know their exact size or weight but they are both pretty much full-grown.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? No water conditioner, as these are not necessary with our tap water. No other additives.
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Give the brand, type of food (sinking/floating pellets, gel food, steamed vegetable, etc.), and how frequently you feed each. Sinking soft New Era Goldfish pellets, have been feeding these for around five months. Hikari Staple before that. Frozen (usually black) mosquito larvae twice a week. Algae pellets with spirulina occasionally (brandless). The fish are fed between 1-3 times a day.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? Nope!
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Nope!
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. The fish has only been treated after I first got him (2012). He was treated with an ich medication (GoldOomed if I recall correctly), eSHa 2000, several rounds of antibiotics (Sera baktopur) and a brandless medication for flukes. As you can see he was quite sickly when I got him, but has been very healthy ever since - until this happened. Unfortunately since it has been so long I don't remember the exact duration of the treatments.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Swollen, cloudy eye. A few fungussy spots on the tail that are likely due to stress as well - he used to get these when he had other issues as well.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Bottom sitting on and off: he bottom sat for around three weeks refusing most food, then swam happily for a week and has now been back to bottom sitting for the past few weeks, though he does perk up when food is added.

 

20160221_230016_zps4nxyz2qw.jpg

 

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Update: the current water values are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, ~10 nitrate, ~8 pH However, while retracing all steps I did realize that my test kit is getting quite old. I think I may order a new one just to make sure all the readings are entirely accurate.

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Hello! I'm sorry about your moor. Can you also post your tap water parameters?

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Can you also post pictures of your whole fish?

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Thanks! Entire fish (the raised scale on his side has been there for years).

07c6a920-573b-4557-89d2-e5c2b99df0c5_zps

 

As for the tap water values, they are very similar to the aquarium water values but I've got a test kit that's not very detailed. For example, pH goes from 6 to 7 to 8, no real indication of what's in between. The nitrates are between 0-5, pH around 8, ammonia 0 nitrites 0. I've just ordered a new test kit to double check, hopefully it's a bit more detailed.

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  • How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? This problem has been going on for a while, so this question isn't too relevant. I changed 75% 7 days ago, though, and will be doing so again in a minute.

The reason we ask this question is to determine how the water looks before a water change.  Very often people have just changed the water because of the sick fish, which make the tank water readings useless.   I hope you did your testing in the minute before you changed the water.   :)

 

How many fish in the tank and their size? There are two large goldfish in the tank. One full-grown Demekin and the sick fish, a slightly longer-bodied Moor. I don't know their exact size or weight but they are both pretty much full-grown.

 

I"m sure you can estimate the standard length (body only, tail fin not included) of your fish.  We don't need an exact measurement, but your large may be my medium or vice versa.

 

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. The fish has only been treated after I first got him (2012). He was treated with an ich medication (GoldOomed if I recall correctly), eSHa 2000, several rounds of antibiotics (Sera baktopur) and a brandless medication for flukes.

 

Can you find and report the active ingredients in these medications?  We find that information very difficult to find.

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I do remember seeing one of our out of the states user stating that eSHA has a malachite green and formalin compound. I think it's similar to QuickCure. Not sure on the others. Hope your fish get better!

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Welcome to Kokos and hope your Goldfish feels better.

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I did test before the water change. The results seemed relatively consistent with the weeks before this, though like I said the nitrate reading especially can be a bit vague. I think the moor is probably between 22-24cm. The demekin has a higher body as you can see, he's probably around 18cm. Here are photos from them in my hand from September - they haven't grown much since then so I hope that gives a sense of scale. Unfortunately they're a little too big for me to hold now so things get pretty splashy.

20150926_134339_zpspuibt83t.jpg

sauron2015_zps8huqonjd.png

 

As for the medications, I'll have to look them up too. Goldoomed is a broadspectrum antiparasitic with formaldehyde 1,54g, malachite green oxalate 14,43 mg. I used it to succesfully cure ich. eSHa 2000 is ethacridine lactate 6,3 mg, copper 2+ 3,2 mg, methyl orange(??) 0,26 mg, proflavine 1 mg (per ml), it helped get rid of fungus. Baktopur is mainly acriflavine, also methylene blue, phenylglycol, it helped get rid of some VERY persistent fin rot. I don't think I can find the info on the brandless medication, sorry :/ I don't have the bottle any more and the goldfish dealer I got it from is nowhere to be found (probably quit). All medications were used in the months after getting the fish. The demekin wasn't exposed to it as I got him in 2014. 

 

Thanks for all the well wishes :)

Edited by intermari

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Forgot to add: this is not even a pet store fish, but a garden store one. Probably very bad quality, mass raised on antibiotics somewhere in Eastern Europe, where many (gold)fish farms are apparently located. The lady at the store told me the fish had been through ich treatment just days before I bought them - apparently not very effective, as they still had ich and multiple other problems. So he's probably been treated with way more than just my medication, but I have no way of knowing. 

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Goldfish

 

I did test before the water change. The results seemed relatively consistent with the weeks before this, though like I said the nitrate reading especially can be a bit vague. I think the moor is probably between 22-24cm. The demekin has a higher body as you can see, he's probably around 18cm. Here are photos from them in my hand from September - they haven't grown much since then so I hope that gives a sense of scale. Unfortunately they're a little too big for me to hold now so things get pretty splashy.

 

Unless you have huge hands, I think you included the tail to give the total length, rather than the standard length.  That's OK since I can figure it out with the pictures.  The moor looks like 11-12 cm s.l.

 

As for the medications, I'll have to look them up too. Goldoomed is a broadspectrum antiparasitic with formaldehyde 1,54g, malachite green oxalate 14,43 mg. I used it to succesfully cure ich.

 

If you ever have ich again, we use 0.3% salt with elevated temperature.  This works very well and much more gently than aldehydes.  

 

eSHa 2000 is ethacridine lactate 6,3 mg, copper 2+ 3,2 mg, methyl orange(??) 0,26 mg, proflavine 1 mg (per ml), it helped get rid of fungus.

 

Goldfish have a high sensitivity to copper.  I would avoid using this product.  The acriflavine and methylene blue in Baktopur  both treat fungus. 

 

Baktopur is mainly acriflavine, also methylene blue, phenylglycol, it helped get rid of some VERY persistent fin rot.

 

I don't think I can find the info on the brandless medication, sorry :/ I don't have the bottle any more and the goldfish dealer I got it from is nowhere to be found (probably quit). All medications were used in the months after getting the fish. The demekin wasn't exposed to it as I got him in 2014. 

 

We recommend praziquantel as a very safe and effective treatment for flukes.  Fluke-Solve has this as its active ingredient.  

 

Thanks for all the well wishes :)

We can start by treating the moor with epsom salt (Mg SO4) to help reduce swelling.  You should be able to get this at any pharmacy.  Use one teaspoon per 10 gallons of water.  We don't want to treat the demekin,  so you need a separate container for treatment.  With a large fish like your moor, you should use an ~10 gallon container with 100% daily water changes.  You can best do this using the "bucket to bucket" method. 

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Thanks for the advice! As for the medication, I know what I used wasn't great - I was 15 or 16 when this happened and although I knew goldfish needed big tanks I had no knowledge medication-wise. Luckily it did work and nothing bad happened.

 

I have a 15 gallon spare tank that I can set up as a hospital tank. I will do so when I get back home. How long am I supposed to treat for, or does that completely depend on when the swelling goes down?

Edited by intermari

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No one expects you to know which medications to use.  I gave my observations on the ingredients purely for future reference.

 

Watch the swelling and any other symptoms that appear and report any changes.  If the epsom hasn't helped in a couple of weeks, we can look at other options. 

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Could you get a picture of the moor from the top so that we can see both eyes?  We actually can't tell what part of the black fish is what.  

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My apologies for the lack of replies. I put off placing the fish in the hospital tank another week because he was swimming last weekend and his eye actually seemed to have improved a bit. Ok, maybe the consistent good water quality was helping. That was apparently a mistake.

 

My mother takes care of the fish during weekdays when I'm away at uni and she texted me he was bottom sitting again. Ok, no problem, time to treat then. When I got home and walked into the room with the hospital tank under my arm I noticed him swimming again, so that was a relief. When I approached the tank, though, I noticed his eye has EXPLODED in size and there's now a bloody blister on top of it. I set the hospital tank up that night with the 400L/h cycled internal filter and added the epsom salt the day after (1.5 teaspoon for 15 gallons, it was actually harder to find than I thought!). What do you guys recommend based on this new development? Continue with the epsom or do something else? I'm leaving again today but my mother can administer simple medication and stuff like that.

Excuse my messy face in the photo reflection. 

20160411_143220_zps9ysyej1a.jpg20160411_143218_zpscwegrrkm.jpg

20160411_142956_zpsgdbgsdka.jpg

Edited by intermari

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Update: I just got home after being away since Monday night and the eye is even more massive now, the epsom salt hasn't had any effect so far. I'm not sure what to do next - up the dosage or switch to something else?

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I need to tell you that we have had little success with treating eye problems in telescopes.  In the US, we would treat with antibiotics at this time,  but we know that's a problem in Europe.  The Bactopur seems like a possible substitute for antibiotic treatment.  If you can get some, let's try it. 

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At this point I don't mind if the fish loses the eye (with the size it is now it seems inevitable), but I really want to prevent it from becoming fatal. I have JBL Ektol Bac, but that has different components: 

Component K1: Benzalkonium chloride, Methylthioninium chloride

Component K2: Polyvinylpyrrolidone

It claims to be effective against "Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Columnaris and others".

Is that suitable as well? If not, I think I can still get Baktopur, though I'd have to go out and buy it.

 

Thanks!

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Me too :( can you imagine it's even bigger now? I feel so sorry for the poor little guy, almost wish it would just fall off already!

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Google Benzalkonium chloride.  

 

A detergent, it is highly toxic to aquatic organisms.  

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