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jmetzger72

Interesting Dropsy Article

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I disagree that waterborne meds aren't effective - in a pond situation it's not economical to dose them enough to be useful, and UV breaks down the meds more quickly, but I've certainly seen water one medications work. Many of the other observations about high organics and organ damage from swelling agree with my own experiences with it, but it's not instant euthanization depending on the animal.

It's a good primer and not out of bounds with other literature I've seen on the subject. The moral of the story is to watch conditions that weaken a fish's immune system and load up the biome with too much waste and low redox, making the fish prone to infection and giving opportunistic anaerobes a chance to bloom and overwhelm the animal.

A solid lesson for any fish or pond keeper, I'd say.

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I don't agree with all of the statements on meds and euthansia either, but I think it is an approachable and informative discussion of Dropsy :)

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One take away for me is the mention of Romet 30 which is an ingredient of Aqua Meds Medi Koi food.  This plus the Kanamycin and Oxolinic acid also in Medi Koi might be an effective treatment for early onset Dropsy.  It could also be too strong for a fish with already compromised kidneys, but that's the catch 22 when treating dropsy :(

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.  This plus the Kanamycin and Oxolinic acid also in Medi Koi might be an effective treatment for early onset Dropsy.  It could also be too strong for a fish with already compromised kidneys, but that's the catch 22 when treating dropsy :(

this is why i will not recommend kanaplex. i do believe and i have said so repeatedly in the past, that once the signs of pineconing are visible, it's already advanced enough to consider that kanamycin is too harsh for the kidneys.

 

it is unfortunate that most will not notice fluid swell with their fish, particularly the female fish since they swell with eggs too. also, that most ornamental fish are in tanks, rarely viewed from above to notice changes with body shapes where swelling is concerned.

 

in a recent report you made to the mod forum.. you suggested Romet B in place of Tri Sulfa treatments. Romet B treats the same symptoms that Tri-Sulfa treats. either can be recommended for use depending on where the person is located. ie, in AU, only one supplier sells Romet and they do not advertise it's sale (seems that it may be a shady import), i have it and i have tried it on my dropsy fish as an experiment to see which is more effective, Romet or Tri Sulfa.. neither made a difference that could be observed.. all i know is that any fish that i have used Kanaplex on displaying signs of pineconing, has not improved or survived.

 

i have not read the article, i will do that tonight, AU time.

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I'm one of the poor suckers this is affecting :cry

I hope my Quinn makes it.

Thanks for posting this article Jared

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.  This plus the Kanamycin and Oxolinic acid also in Medi Koi might be an effective treatment for early onset Dropsy.  It could also be too strong for a fish with already compromised kidneys, but that's the catch 22 when treating dropsy :(

this is why i will not recommend kanaplex. i do believe and i have said so repeatedly in the past, that once the signs of pineconing are visible, it's already advanced enough to consider that kanamycin is too harsh for the kidneys.

 

it is unfortunate that most will not notice fluid swell with their fish, particularly the female fish since they swell with eggs too. also, that most ornamental fish are in tanks, rarely viewed from above to notice changes with body shapes where swelling is concerned.

 

in a recent report you made to the mod forum.. you suggested Romet B in place of Tri Sulfa treatments. Romet B treats the same symptoms that Tri-Sulfa treats. either can be recommended for use depending on where the person is located. ie, in AU, only one supplier sells Romet and they do not advertise it's sale (seems that it may be a shady import), i have it and i have tried it on my dropsy fish as an experiment to see which is more effective, Romet or Tri Sulfa.. neither made a difference that could be observed.. all i know is that any fish that i have used Kanaplex on displaying signs of pineconing, has not improved or survived.

 

i have not read the article, i will do that tonight, AU time.

 

Kanamycin can be effective for Dropsy, but it "may" also harm the kidneys.  But, this can be said for many other antibiotics including triple sufa.  I don't think I recommended using Romet B, I just meant that Romet was one of ingredients in Metro Meds and that I thought it was the Oxytetracycline that really did the work.  That's what I meant, anyway.  As I understand it, Romet is a potentiated sulfa and slightly better than Triple Sulfa.  However, it has supposedly been improved upon in the Romet 30 formula.  If this is true, Romet 30 "might" be a good option.

 

In my opinion, based on my experience, none of the sulfas have proven very effective for Dropsy.  They are also not generally supported by the literature for this condition.  My first choice would be Oxytetracycline, but it's not easy to get everywhere.  The real problem with Dropsy is that if you treat with a mild antibiotic first and it doesn't work, you've wasted precious time and it is probably too late to employ a stronger one that might have saved the fish initially.  It is a catch 22 situation and very frustrating.

Edited by Jared

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Another thing I noticed is that even though Seachem has a sulfa drug (Sulfaplex), they do not recommend it for Dropsy.  They recommend Kanaplex.  Focus is also recommended which indicates that feeding the Kanaplex is their preferred method of delivery.  Focus is used to bond other antibiotics to food.

Edited by Jared

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I'm one of the poor suckers this is affecting :cry

I hope my Quinn makes it.

Thanks for posting this article Jared

I hope so too, Aubrey  :grouphug

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Interesting... Last year I lost 4 fish to dropsy...only one I managed to 'cure' but it came back a couple of months later and no matter what I did he got worse and worse. I euthed 3 of them and 1 passed on his own.

 

I've often felt like if I ever saw a fish pineconing again I'd just want to euth after all I went through last year...but I know I would end up trying to treat.

 

I used the same treatment each time...which I believe consisted of Oxytetracycline + Tri Sulfa + Metronidazole

 

I've never tried kanaplex.

 

 

I think the hard part about dropsy is trying to catch it early....each time I only caught it once a few scales were starting to lift...then they progressed very very quickly. I also think it's hard that there seem to be so many things that can cause swelling. It's a terrible thing that's for sure :(

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.  This plus the Kanamycin and Oxolinic acid also in Medi Koi might be an effective treatment for early onset Dropsy.  It could also be too strong for a fish with already compromised kidneys, but that's the catch 22 when treating dropsy :(

this is why i will not recommend kanaplex. i do believe and i have said so repeatedly in the past, that once the signs of pineconing are visible, it's already advanced enough to consider that kanamycin is too harsh for the kidneys.

 

it is unfortunate that most will not notice fluid swell with their fish, particularly the female fish since they swell with eggs too. also, that most ornamental fish are in tanks, rarely viewed from above to notice changes with body shapes where swelling is concerned.

 

in a recent report you made to the mod forum.. you suggested Romet B in place of Tri Sulfa treatments. Romet B treats the same symptoms that Tri-Sulfa treats. either can be recommended for use depending on where the person is located. ie, in AU, only one supplier sells Romet and they do not advertise it's sale (seems that it may be a shady import), i have it and i have tried it on my dropsy fish as an experiment to see which is more effective, Romet or Tri Sulfa.. neither made a difference that could be observed.. all i know is that any fish that i have used Kanaplex on displaying signs of pineconing, has not improved or survived.

 

i have not read the article, i will do that tonight, AU time.

 Oxytetracycline that really did the work.  That's what I meant, anyway.  As I understand it, Romet is a potentiated sulfa and slightly better than Triple Sulfa.  However, it has supposedly been improved upon in the Romet 30 formula. 

 

 

 

i have used Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride with great success :) in combination with Metronidazole. i dearly want to be recommending this combination to the forum since it's brought great results for my community of fish. sometimes i will use this combination with Tri-Sulfa and the results would be the same, therefore, i have canned the use of Tri Sulfa and stuck with the other two since no significant improvement was noted using the 3 combined.

 

ken's fish has an oxytetracycline feed that i have recommended a few times, but have been caught up with my own business affairs to keep track on if the OP has purchased and used the product, thus forgetting where my recommendations were made.

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.  This plus the Kanamycin and Oxolinic acid also in Medi Koi might be an effective treatment for early onset Dropsy.  It could also be too strong for a fish with already compromised kidneys, but that's the catch 22 when treating dropsy :(

this is why i will not recommend kanaplex. i do believe and i have said so repeatedly in the past, that once the signs of pineconing are visible, it's already advanced enough to consider that kanamycin is too harsh for the kidneys.

 

it is unfortunate that most will not notice fluid swell with their fish, particularly the female fish since they swell with eggs too. also, that most ornamental fish are in tanks, rarely viewed from above to notice changes with body shapes where swelling is concerned.

 

in a recent report you made to the mod forum.. you suggested Romet B in place of Tri Sulfa treatments. Romet B treats the same symptoms that Tri-Sulfa treats. either can be recommended for use depending on where the person is located. ie, in AU, only one supplier sells Romet and they do not advertise it's sale (seems that it may be a shady import), i have it and i have tried it on my dropsy fish as an experiment to see which is more effective, Romet or Tri Sulfa.. neither made a difference that could be observed.. all i know is that any fish that i have used Kanaplex on displaying signs of pineconing, has not improved or survived.

 

i have not read the article, i will do that tonight, AU time.

 Oxytetracycline that really did the work.  That's what I meant, anyway.  As I understand it, Romet is a potentiated sulfa and slightly better than Triple Sulfa.  However, it has supposedly been improved upon in the Romet 30 formula. 

 

 

 

i have used Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride with great success :) in combination with Metronidazole. i dearly want to be recommending this combination to the forum since it's brought great results for my community of fish. sometimes i will use this combination with Tri-Sulfa and the results would be the same, therefore, i have canned the use of Tri Sulfa and stuck with the other two since no significant improvement was noted using the 3 combined.

 

ken's fish has an oxytetracycline feed that i have recommended a few times, but have been caught up with my own business affairs to keep track on if the OP has purchased and used the product, thus forgetting where my recommendations were made.

 

Excellent, I will definitely check that Oxy food out.  Thanks, Helen :)

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I think Tri-Sulfa may be heading down the same path as Tetracycline.  Many bacteria have become resistant to it :(

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I feel that if I were going to treat Dropsy again (I hope I don't have to for a long long time after last year!) I would leave out the tri sulfa. I don't like exposing them to more than needed either.

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There is a viewpoint that once dropsy is truly noticed, that it really can be absolutely random whether a fish responds to treatment or not. I mean, there are still sites that say dropsy is fatal and that treatment is basically pointless. As dropsy usually returns, I guess to some extent that can be called true. As for waterborne medication with advanced dropsy, I heard one comparison that said it was like "rubbing neosporin onto the chest of a person with a lung infection". But of course I'm a newbie so I don't know what the deal is. I just know that dropsy is very serious ands often kills despite aggressive treatment. :(

Edited by mjfromga

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like humans, infections persist, can recur or new ones form. i do believe that goldfish experience the same. a flesh wound irrespective of a scratch, open wound, impacted opened wound can present the same surface infection in each scenario.. they also heal the same way, like in humans.

 

other internal infections are also similar to humans, multiple infections in humans bring the same symptoms that ring that same alarm bell. shivering, loose stools, weakness, lethargy etc. 

 

there are many bacteria floating in the water that fish are protected by with their slime coat. once that barrier is compromised and it may just be a gauge deep enough in the slime coat to expose a scale, then they can become victims of the bacteria floating in the water. it can be that simple.

 

our hobby lacks a laboratory for investigation. there are ways to detect certain bacteria with microscope and grams stain kits.. along with an encyclopaedia of books/internet. but where do you start and how much do you spend?

 

the key to any illness/infection is EARLY DETECTION. if we do not know the lives we are caring for, exactly how they should be, then small signs will go unnoticed and i have never met a bacteria to just simply go away on it's own.

 

which is why all we can do is treat the symptom and try to use meds which have determined that are less harmful to our goldfish and at the same time, bring favourable results.. the purpose of this thread.

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i found it difficult to read the article. it troubled me to follow when the author who is clearly an experienced aquarist refers to dropsy as a disease or a bacteria. it is not. dropsy is a visible symptom and not a bacteria. the symptom dropsy is the result of a bacteria infection. it is what we see, it is not the cause or the continuing problem.

 

nevertheless, there was good effort put into the article, but there are many points i don't agree with and not important enough to make examples of.

 

i think this thread is more educational to our audience than that article.

 

to extend conversation in my previous reply which basically only covered bacteria infection. it also needs to be determined why the fish is overcome by infection. so, the metromeds were designed as a broad spectrum antibiotic to plug the three main issues. gram positive bacteria, gram negative bacteria and surface wounds. so, essentially, GFC created the bomb which would treat ALL possible symptoms in our tanks and ponds.

 

if the bacteria is the primary cause for displaying the symptom of dropsy, then MMs worked splendidly, the OP would work towards the correction required and all would be well.. if bacteria is the secondary cause, then MMs would only treat the visible symptoms and any internal infections, possibly pushing the primary cause to be dormant until the meds were no longer present in the host creating the perfect opportunity for another attack that we refer to as 'relapsing'.

 

Metronidazole - gram positive (as well as a mild anti parasite treatment)

Oxytetracycline - gram negative

Tri-Sulfa or Romet - broad spectrum and mainly for the treatment external wounds.

 

i am all for the use of Metronidazole and Oxytetracycline (as mentioned previously) for the treatment of dropsy. and depending on the history of the fish, i think it would be wise to recommend mild salt dips as well as the use of Prazi. flukes can cause wounds which can lead to secondary bacteria that can ultimately lead to a blowout. and since they cannot be seen with the naked eye, and that most aquarists do not have access to a microscope, it is in my opinion that the Praziquantel is milder than either sulfa and better tailored to our hobby than the sulfa.

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So, I think we all agree that Triple Sulfa is probably ineffective for this condition?

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i think so :)

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i found it difficult to read the article. it troubled me to follow when the author who is clearly an experienced aquarist refers to dropsy as a disease or a bacteria. it is not. dropsy is a visible symptom and not a bacteria. the symptom dropsy is the result of a bacteria infection. it is what we see, it is not the cause or the continuing problem.

 

nevertheless, there was good effort put into the article, but there are many points i don't agree with and not important enough to make examples of.

 

i think this thread is more educational to our audience than that article.

 

to extend conversation in my previous reply which basically only covered bacteria infection. it also needs to be determined why the fish is overcome by infection. so, the metromeds were designed as a broad spectrum antibiotic to plug the three main issues. gram positive bacteria, gram negative bacteria and surface wounds. so, essentially, GFC created the bomb which would treat ALL possible symptoms in our tanks and ponds.

 

if the bacteria is the primary cause for displaying the symptom of dropsy, then MMs worked splendidly, the OP would work towards the correction required and all would be well.. if bacteria is the secondary cause, then MMs would only treat the visible symptoms and any internal infections, possibly pushing the primary cause to be dormant until the meds were no longer present in the host creating the perfect opportunity for another attack that we refer to as 'relapsing'.

 

Metronidazole - gram positive (as well as a mild anti parasite treatment)

Oxytetracycline - gram negative

Tri-Sulfa or Romet - broad spectrum and mainly for the treatment external wounds.

 

i am all for the use of Metronidazole and Oxytetracycline (as mentioned previously) for the treatment of dropsy. and depending on the history of the fish, i think it would be wise to recommend mild salt dips as well as the use of Prazi. flukes can cause wounds which can lead to secondary bacteria that can ultimately lead to a blowout. and since they cannot be seen with the naked eye, and that most aquarists do not have access to a microscope, it is in my opinion that the Praziquantel is milder than either sulfa and better tailored to our hobby than the sulfa.

Not to be picky but in the first paragraph of the answer the author does point out that dropsy is a symptom of other diseases.

I was wondering why there was no mention of using salt to allow the retained body fluids to equalize and reduce the swelling. Probably the wrong terms but you get what I mean?

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i noticed that too, re the salt.  i also noticed that too, re the first mention however not long after that, it was termed differently.. 

 

also where i mention that i don't agree with some of the things, but they aren't too important to mention. and one of those is the absence of the use of Epsom. since we typically use Epsom with 95% of dropsy cases at kokos, i chose it as one of those less important things to mention here. also, that Epsom is not an antibiotic and this topic was leaning towards the discussions of specific antibiotics which can be used to fight infections.

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So, I think we all agree that Triple Sulfa is probably ineffective for this condition?

Used with another medication it can work well synergistically, the same way Furan does. They're not enough on their own but I'm actually liking tetracycline or triple sulfa with metronidazole more than I thought I would, and for some members they're easier to find locally.

If we are dealing with dropsy plus lesions/ulcers or rot I treat differently than if dropsy is the only visible symptom. It just depends.

Just my .02

Edited by Arctic Mama

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In response to post #22, 23:  Yeah, I've even seen articles where regular salt is recommended instead of Epsom.  But, I've always found Epsom to work well :)

Edited by Jared

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