Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sykadelic

Blood splotches/spots & torn fins

Recommended Posts

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • Ammonia Level(Tank): 0.25 (normally 0 but I changed the water yesterday)
    • Nitrite Level(Tank): 0
    • Nitrate level(Tank): 20
    • Ammonia Level(Tap): 2-4
    • Nitrite Level(Tap): 0
    • Nitrate level(Tap): 0
    • Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.8
    • Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.8

       

    • Other Required Info:
      • Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?  API drops
      • Water temperature?  75
      • Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 56G, just over a year with my new filter. Tank & filter new as of year ago
      • What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 306
      • How often do you change the water and how much? Once a month (I know not enough but our tap water has high ammonia) 80% - 2 x 75%
  • How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, 80%
  • How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 x black moor, 1 x calico ryukin & 1 x red cap oranda. All about 2 1/2" - 3".
  • What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime.
  • What do you feed your fish and how often? Give the brand, type of food (sinking/floating pellets, gel food, steamed vegetable, etc.), and how frequently you feed each. Omega One, medium sinking pellets, daily. Once a week, peas
  • Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • Any medications added to the tank? Added 2 1/2 capfuls of API Melafix today
  • List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/109162-goldies-ryukin-need-your-help-please/
  • Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Bloody streaks, frayed fins
  • Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? March 11 - Red cap bottom sitting, bloody streaks & not eating (not even peas). March 12 woke to leaning sideways at bottom of tank (still not eating and mild blood streaks/spots) so did an 80% water change. Today fins are very bloody and slightly frayed but swimming better now, still low but not bottom sitting, and ate peas.

 

My red cap had a red spot some time ago but no torn fins and over time it faded. As seen above he was bottom sitting and lethargic/not eating so I did a large water change (placed them in a bucket in the meantime to make sure they wouldn't be too stressed). This afternoon after we got back from a day out, her fins are frayed and looking awful. PIcs attached.

I think it's nitrate poisoning or septicemia. I think I need to give antibiotics like tetracycline, salt or continue treating with melafix... but I really don't know for sure and I don't want to do anything without knowing for sure. I don't have anything except salt, prime and melafix on hand and I normally shop at goldfishconnection but I understand that closed... so I need another place to buy meds as well as what I should get.

Thank you so much!!

 

Brains fins

2016-03-14%2022.03.57_zpsuq3daeml.jpg

 

Ammonia levels of the tap

2016-03-14%2022.03.24_zpscgovwjmu.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yow - those ammonia levels are scary. Even Prime can't detoxify levels that high. I have .5 - 1.0 ppm of ammonia from the tap. Usually the tank can get rid of it within a day or so. Sorry about your guy :( Fin conditions are often caused by poor water quality. I'd be scared to use the water with ammonia readings that high. Hopefully someone knowledgeable will be along soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hello, hun. those are very difficult water conditions to be faced with. and thank you for being honest with the questionnaire. it really helps to understand what we are dealing with. since you only have this water to use, it's great that the cycle in your filter is assisting with reducing the ammonia as much as it is. also, the fact that you only have 3 fish in a 75g and feeding once daily, ensures that the nitrates are staying as low as possible. i want to congratulate you on making the best of this situation and working a good routine.

 

goldfish can live in less ideal water conditions, the main thing is to keep those conditions stable. we do not recommend them but sometimes when we cannot have any better, we try to work with the quality of water available to us as best we can. seems like you are doing a good job :)

 

as for your redcap, i do feel that antibiotics is necessary. i am just not sure on which ones to recommend that will not mess with your very important cycle. so, i have reported your post to the rest of the moderating team in hope that someone is or will be available soon, to make their suggestions. they may also know how to help better the water situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys. I usually dose with Prime for a couple of days following a change to try and lessen the effects of the ammonia and my cycle usually has no problem dealing with it. I anticipate if i check it today it should be 0. I included the pic though so you guys could see for yourself just how awful it is and that that wasn't a typo.

I'll stand by for advice. I do have an LFS about 30 mins away that I can call to check if they have meds once i know what I'm looking for. I'll make the drive because I really don't want to lose them. My black more just got breeding stars a few weeks ago so they were doing well :(

I'm pretty lucky in that I haven't had issues for a long time but I'm sure I've just got complacent or something :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hope your Goldfish feels better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am definitely recommending Metronidazole.. i would like to recommend tri-sulfa, however, some have reported that this may affect the cycle and given the ammonia coming out of your tap, it's safer to treat your fish in the main tank where the filter is doing it's best to keep the toxins down as low as possible. so perhaps we will wait for the water experts before buying trisulfa.

 

that said, Sharon (shakaho) is going to try and help you with the water. please do try to follow her instructions as much as possible, we are interested in helping you maintain a safer environment for your goldfish. if better water broadens our medicine range, then perhaps we can treat more effectively.

 

if you can, please do buy the Metronidazole, at least we can start with that.

 

i will chime in again tomorrow morning (my time).

 

good luck :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.http://www.kokosgold...ur-help-please/

 

Help!  Finding information on a long old thread takes a lot of work.  Could you copy the relevant info from the old thread or at least give us the post# of the relevant posts?

 

Follow Helen's instructions on medication.  She asked for help with the water quality issue which I can give.  

 

I will suggest a few procedures that will keep your water quality up in spite of the bad tap water.

 

First and simplest, you can do small daily water changes without treating the tap water at all.  Every day, remove 5 gallons of water from the tank and replace it  with five gallons of tap water treated with 2x the Prime dose for 5 gallons.  If you have 2 ppm ammonia in the tap and zero in the tank, this will give you about 0.2ppm in the tank after the water change.  Your filter will quickly remove that, resulting in no harm to your fish.  

 

You could also prefilter your tap water to remove ammonia.  Get a container large enough to hold the largest amount of water you want to change at one time.  Then put a HOB filter that you have seeded with medium from your cycled filter on the container.  Let it run until the ammonia level reaches an insignificant level.  Depending on how heavily you seeded it, it will take a while before the filter clears the ammonia quickly.

 

You can also use plants to remove ammonia.  Aquatic plants use ammonia as their preferred source of nitrogen, and unlike filter bacteria, they don't release nitrate.  You might consider setting up a planted tank of about 20 gallons.  Load it with plants and feed it tap water.  Use it as a source of water  for water changes, preferably the small daily changes above.  This can help with your nitrates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.http://www.kokosgold...ur-help-please/

 

Help!  Finding information on a long old thread takes a lot of work.  Could you copy the relevant info from the old thread or at least give us the post# of the relevant posts?

 

Follow Helen's instructions on medication.  She asked for help with the water quality issue which I can give. 

 

April 8, 2013

Ich outbreak – Started with 5 fish

0.3% salt, temp increase to 78.6, 1 fish death (4 remaining)

 

April 9, 2013

50% water changes each day starting today. Replacing salt to keep 0.3% concentration

 

April 12, 2013

Day 5 of salt treatment and Day 4 of 50% change (but I did an 80% instead because I took out the old sand).

 

April 14, 2013

Day 7 of salt treatment and Day 6 of 50%

 

April 15, 2013

1 fish died – 3 remaining

Day 8 of salt treatment (though I dropped down to 0.15% for a day due to ammonia levels but back up this morning).

I haven't done a water change since 4/11 because of high ammonia in my taps and my cycle being compromised.

 

April 19, 2013

1 fish died – 2 remaining

 

April 22, 2013

Prazi (purchased from TastyWorms… which I’m writing for my own records as well!) – commenced 5 day scheduled (6 rounds) per: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/105076-schedules-for-the-treatment-of-flukes-etc-using-praziquantel/

 

May 18, 2013

Prazi – Round 6 begins

 

~~~~~

Sorry I hadn't listed them before. Hope that helps!

Thanks for the water suggestions! I'll look them and try and find one that will work for us. I've considered a planted tank before so I'll try and figure out some logistics for that.

Also, "Metronidazole", that's "Metroplex" by Seachem at my LFS. He said there's enough to treat 100G in one dose and that I could use that for 2 doses. So how much should I get?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To minimize the amount of expensive medication we recommend treating fish in a 10 gallon hospital tank.  This can be an aquarium or a plastic storage tote.  Also you do not want to treat the other fish with an antibiotic. 

 

Usually, we would use clean tap water in the hospital tank, but we can't do that with all the ammonia.  One of our mods had the brilliant idea of using water from the main tank in the hospital tank. 

 

So I offer this plan:

 

Find a container of at least 10 gallons for your hospital tank.

 

Remove 5 gallons of water from the main tank, pour it in the hospital tank, and add 5 gallons of tap water to the main tank.  Wait until the ammonia in the main tank has dropped to zero or 12 hours, whichever comes first,  then repeat this action.  You will have a filled hospital tank and a water-changed main tank.

 

We will not use a cycled filter in the hospital tank.  If you have a small HOB filter, you can use it in the hospital tank for mechanical filtration and water circulation.  If you don't, put an airstone in the hospital tank.  We will maintain the water quality with water changes.  This allows us to use the Triple Sulfa/tri sulfa  (same thing, two names) that Helen wanted to use, since we have no cycle to protect. So pick up some of that as well as the Metro.

 

We can change 50% of the water in the hospital tank daily.  The procedure will be:

 

Remove 5 gallons of water from the hospital tank. 

 

Replace it with 5 gallons of water from the main tank.

 

Add Prime for ten gallons and medications for 5 gallons to the hospital tank.

 

Replace the water taken from the main tank with 5 gallons of tap water. 

 

 

Are you picturing a bucket brigade?  :D

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so after calling my LFS they have Triple-Sulpha and Metroplex. I'll just get that 1 dose of the Metro, how much Triple-sulpha will I need?

 

Petsmart have a 10G tank on sale (so I'm told, believe it when I see it), that's the "Aqueon Deluxe Aquarium 10" http://www.aqueonproducts.com/products/deluxe-aquarium-kit.htm

and it comes with a HOB filter and hood etc. I'll run the filter with a couple of the ceramic thingys from the Fluval (that okay?) to seed it.

 

And unrelated but... Petco have the turtle food I need.

 

So leave work at 5pm to the LFS (1/2 hour away), then to PetCo for turtle food (10 mins from LFS), then Petsmart for tank etc (if there's none there then Walmart is about 2 mins from there where I can get a tote). I have to be back at work for a class by 6:30pm. I'm not going to speed or do anything rash (because that's how people have accidents) but anyone wanna place bets on how long (and expensive) this is going to be? Google maps claims an hour but isn't taking actual shopping into account... Oh and I have to change into different clothes as we're having a class photo taken. Worth it though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good.  It looks like you will be ready for action when Helen gets up our evening/her morning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, my husband is home for the day and sent me a message telling me that Brain passed away today.

 

So I'm not sure what I should do. Should I order some Prazi and salt the tank just in case something is going on internally? Should I still get some form of meds and dose the tank?

 

I will be getting another fish at some point I'm sure, not sure what kind and will need a hospital/quarantine/water changing tank anyway... so let me know what you recommend me to do.

 

Maybe he was sicker for longer than I thought? Maybe that first red spot was my first sign and he just went downhill too fast... /sigh :'(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am sorry, hun :( RIP Brain.

 

Prazi is a good thing to have around. sometimes, even when we think that we have resolved the flukes situation, it can come back and reinfest the community.. it's also great because it does not spoil very fast and if you decide to buy another fish, you are prepared for the QT.

 

Metroplex and tri-sulfa are also very good to have on hand. they work very well together as a strong enough, yet very safe start to any issue requiring antibiotic. i would recommend their purchase to any aquarist, just to keep in the cupboard as a safe guard. they too last a very long time.

 

another good thing is a truck load of salt :) but if you can shove a decent size packet of Morton's C&P salt in your fish cupboard, that's a good start :)

 

since the ill fish is no longer, i will now step back and leave you in the hands of our water gurus :)

 

all the best, hun :heart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm so sorry for your loss. Rest in peace, little one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can also use plants to remove ammonia. Aquatic plants use ammonia as their preferred source of nitrogen, and unlike filter bacteria, they don't release nitrate. You might consider setting up a planted tank of about 20 gallons. Load it with plants and feed it tap water. Use it as a source of water for water changes, preferably the small daily changes above. This can help with your nitrates.

I'm considering doing this but I've never had a planted tank before. Is there a guide?

Could I maybe put a beta in there or something or would any fish hate that tank?

Bearing in mind I'd add some ceramics from my fluval to help with the load

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am sorry, hun :( RIP Brain.

Prazi is a good thing to have around. sometimes, even when we think that we have resolved the flukes situation, it can come back and reinfest the community.. it's also great because it does not spoil very fast and if you decide to buy another fish, you are prepared for the QT.

Metroplex and tri-sulfa are also very good to have on hand. they work very well together as a strong enough, yet very safe start to any issue requiring antibiotic. i would recommend their purchase to any aquarist, just to keep in the cupboard as a safe guard. they too last a very long time.

another good thing is a truck load of salt :) but if you can shove a decent size packet of Morton's C&P salt in your fish cupboard, that's a good start :)

since the ill fish is no longer, i will now step back and leave you in the hands of our water gurus :)

all the best, hun :heart

Thanks for trying though :)

As there's no rush now I'll deal with getting supplies on Friday when I usually go into town to get groceries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You can also use plants to remove ammonia. Aquatic plants use ammonia as their preferred source of nitrogen, and unlike filter bacteria, they don't release nitrate. You might consider setting up a planted tank of about 20 gallons. Load it with plants and feed it tap water. Use it as a source of water for water changes, preferably the small daily changes above. This can help with your nitrates.

I'm considering doing this but I've never had a planted tank before. Is there a guide? We have a forum on planted tanks where you can get lots of help from people who grow plants in aquariums.  I am not one of them.   :)

Could I maybe put a beta in there or something or would any fish hate that tank?  They would suffer and probably die from the ammonia.

 

Bearing in mind I'd add some ceramics from my fluval to help with the load.  This would increase the level of nitrate in the planted tank.  Aquatic plants use ammonia, rather than nitrate as their nitrogen source.    Filter bacteria convert ammonia to nitrate.  For the planted tank  to lower the nitrate level, the plants need to out-compete the nitrifiers for the ammonia.

The first thing you have to do is daily 5 gallon water changes in the main tank.  This will eliminate ammonia from the tank, and will stabilize the nitrate concentration.  

 

Let my explain the biology and chemistry of your water situation.  If you don't understand something, ask.

 

Your tap water has you between a rock and a hard place.  Let's call the ammonia tap concentration 3 ppm.  At that level of ammonia fish will die, maybe not immediately, but it will permanently damage the gills and the brain, and this damage will continue as long as the exposure lasts.  When you do an 80% water change using that water 80% of the tap water ammonia will be in the tank -- 2.4 ppm.  Still very toxic.  However, you have a cycled filter that rapidly converts that ammonia to nitrate, so while the fish suffer some damage from the high ammonia, the ammonia drops fast enough to keep them alive.  

 

I understand that you did this 80% water change because the very high nitrate.  How high?  When you removed 80% of the water you removed 80% of the nitrate, leaving you with 20% = 1/5 of the original. The 20 ppm that you had in the tank after the water changes says that you had ~ 5 times that or 100 ppm in the tank before the water change. While some goldfish can tolerate that concentration of nitrate, most fancy goldfish will suffer from it.  

 

Thus, I place you between a rock and a hard place.  Change water and poison your fish with ammonia.  Don't change water and build up nitrate to toxic levels.  Fortunately, because you have a good cycled filter, we can handle the ammonia problem.  Do 10% daily water changes = change ~5 gallons of water a day.  A 10% water change will dilute anything added with the tap water (like ammonia) to 1/10 its original concentration.  So if you start with zero ammonia in the tank and 3 ppm in the tap water, after the water change you have 0.3 ppm ammonia in the tank, not ideal, but not very toxic either.  Furthermore, your filter bacteria will convert this amount of ammonia to nitrate in an hour or so.

 

So what happens to the nitrate levels in the tank?  Every day when you remove 10% of the water from your tank for the water change, you remove 10% of the nitrate in the tank water.  So right after the water change, the nitrate is 10% lower.  Your fish produce ammonia, and a little ammonia comes in with the tap water.  Your filter converts this to nitrate, so the amount of nitrate increases until the next water change.  If it increases by 10% and then decreases by 10% at the next water change, the average nitrate concentration stays the same.  If it increases by more than 10%, the average nitrate concentration will gradually increase.  If it increases by less than 10%, the average nitrate concentration will gradually decrease.  

 

I have to go now, so I will talk about lowering nitrate later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if I use a planted 10g tank to remove the ammonia, and do weekly changes of 5G, is that enough to keep everything down? Or should I get a 20g planted tank and do 10g changes?

Basically what I'm getting from this is even with the Prime to detoxify it, the ammonia is too high and ultimately it's what is killing my fish (slowly or quickly), together with the nitrate of course.

I need to handle the ammonia situation or I'll never keep fish alive for long (Brain was about 3).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry he died! And you definitely have difficulty with that tank situation. I'd actually be tempted to run a sump setup to hold water detoxifying with plants and filtration that was the same volume as the top tank and change the water from *thag* setup. Every time you need to refill it is pumping from the lower tank, and you refill into there thus essentially prefiltering your water for the next time around. Your main tank never gets any water that is fresh from the taps, just the stuff that has been in the lower tank for several days already.

ETA - I see you're already discussing this, my bad! It depends on how long it takes to detoxify your tank's ammonia but I'd be inclined to go with a bigger water volume and twice weekly smaller changes, to keep the chemistry more stable and less volatile than a big water change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ammonia in your tank only gets too high when you do large water changes.  With the level of  ammonia in your tap water, anything over ~ 20% constitutes a too-large water change.  To keep the nitrate (and other dissolved substances) from going to toxic levels, you must do frequent small changes.

 

To keep the ammonia down in your fish tank, you only need to change 5 gallons of water a day, replacing this with tap water treated with Prime.  With your good cycled filter and this water change schedule your ammonia will never get to a level that Prime will not inactivate.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ammonia in your tank only gets too high when you do large water changes. With the level of ammonia in your tap water, anything over ~ 20% constitutes a too-large water change. To keep the nitrate (and other dissolved substances) from going to toxic levels, you must do frequent small changes.

To keep the ammonia down in your fish tank, you only need to change 5 gallons of water a day, replacing this with tap water treated with Prime. With your good cycled filter and this water change schedule your ammonia will never get to a level that Prime will not inactivate.

I picked up those two 10g tank kits from Petsmart yesterday for 20.70 each so I now have a QT tank and one for the planted tanks (that I'll get started on after more research).

I also picked up a new Oranda (I think - vid attached) and s/he is in QT. I've seeded the filter with ceramics from my fluval but should I still do 50% changes everyday for the QT stages like salt etc? https://vimeo.com/159386111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll start a topic in the tanks/water area rather than fill up Diagnosis with my questions. I'll post the link here once I've done it (from my pc tonight)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as you don't get ammonia/nitrite in the QT, you can do weekly changes, taking the water from the main tank, not from the tap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as you don't get ammonia/nitrite in the QT, you can do weekly changes, taking the water from the main tank, not from the tap.

I was thinking that was going to be the safest way. Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...