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ChrissieA

Possible infection/dropsy

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Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank). 0

* Nitrite Level(Tank). 0

* Nitrate level(Tank). <5

* Ammonia Level(Tap). 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap). 0

* Nitrate level(Tap). 0

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines). 7.2

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines). 7.2

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Colombo drops

* Water temperature? 19-22

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 140L, 8 months

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquapro super fish, 800L per hour

* How often do you change the water and how much? 2x weekly, 50-80%

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 3 days, 80%

* How many fish in the tank and their size? 3, 10cm, 7cm and 6 cm

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aqua safe water conditioner

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Fcp sinking pellets 3-4 x weekly, frozen mosquito larvae 1-2 x weekly, peas once a week, fast day

* Any new fish added to the tank? 4 months ago

* Any medications added to the tank? Prazi on Friday

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Did prazi/levamisole treatment in November, full course. Began new treatment around a month ago because they started flashing, but when Frank had his filter incident I took it out. Added it back on Friday after WC because they're all flashing again

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No

Frank had the incident with the filter intake about a month ago I think. He took some skin off the top of his head but seemed otherwise fine. Yesterday I thought he looked a little 'big' but he's been growing like mad the last few months so I didn't think much of it, however today I've noticed he's more swollen and his scales are raised.

On Friday when I added the prazi to the tank he bottom sat for a little bit, he's never ever bottom sat before.

I'm not sure whether it's from his head or maybe flukes, but I'm pretty sure he's dropsied. He's behaving fine, eating, no clamping etc.

I have no meds on hand, trying to get my bf to pick up some Epsom salt and awaiting someones instructions on what else I need.

I think the pics are clear enough. It's mainly just behind the gills. If you look at him front on his sides stick out quite a bit further than his head, but I couldn't get a pic of this, he wouldn't cooperate

image_zpsglyfm45t.jpeg

image_zpspxuenith.jpeg

image_zps7snvqszk.jpeg

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I would treat with metronidazole AND triple sulfa OR oxytetracycline.  Most big box stores carry triple sulfa but not metro.  The metro is a must.  If you don't have a good locally owned pet store around, you'll need to order it online.

 

Right now.. put 1 tsp per 10 gallons of Epsom salt..

 

To get you started :)

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Thank you Dawn

I would treat with metronidazole AND triple sulfa OR oxytetracycline.  Most big box stores carry triple sulfa but not metro.  The metro is a must.  If you don't have a good locally owned pet store around, you'll need to order it online.

 

Right now.. put 1 tsp per 10 gallons of Epsom salt..

 

To get you started :)

Koko you wouldn't happen to know of any European products that contain those would you? I'm having a hard time finding anything on google but I'll keep looking

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Amazon are out of triple sulfa... Is there an alternative? I found the seachem metroplex... Assuming amazon can send it here to the netherlands of course

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Amazon are out of triple sulfa... Is there an alternative? I found the seachem metroplex... Assuming amazon can send it here to the netherlands of course

 

can you find

oxytetracycline

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Try looking at koi products. It is the same as here in Denmark, you can't really get any medication.

 

Try calling Dino from the Fancy Goldfishstore, he has many koi products on hand and will be able to help you find something you can use. Or look at amazon.co.uk or ebay.de - as they might have more products to offer. Just got some medication from Malta, so it is possible to find.

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Great thank you jared. We're going to call around today and see if we can find anything suitable locally, if not I'll try ordering those tonight and hope they will ship them here.

I have zero experience with dropsy, I know there's no exact answer but how long can A fish go like this generally? I'm just worried about the time it's going to take to get the meds :(

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Great thank you jared. We're going to call around today and see if we can find anything suitable locally, if not I'll try ordering those tonight and hope they will ship them here.

I have zero experience with dropsy, I know there's no exact answer but how long can A fish go like this generally? I'm just worried about the time it's going to take to get the meds :(

It can be a quick killer or take some time.  Starting the Epsom Salt immediately may help until you get the antibiotics.  You might be able to find New Life Spectrum Hex Shield at a Pet Store to deliver the Metronidazole, but you will still need a gram negative antibiotic to reverse the infection.

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Ok thank you. He's still swimming around normally, Unclamped etc this morning so that's a good sign I think. I'll keep working on the meds. Thanks again :)

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Frank is currently in 10G with 1tsp Epsom salt and still seems happy. We figured it would be easier to just get the meds at a vet, we asked over the phone, she wanted a lot of information and photos of Frank. She was in and out of clients so it went for a couple of hours. We told her what we wanted. They closed at 7pm and without an answer as to whether she would give them to us, we turned up anyway hoping for the best.

She didn't have what we wanted, nor am I totally sure she knows much about goldfish... The best she could do was 5% baytril to dissolve in the water. 1ml per 10L. She gave me enough for 3 days which is apparently a full course. It's both gram positive and gram negative.

Any thoughts before I add it?

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Don't know about the medication, but if she didn't seem very knowledgeable, I'm glad you came to ask before you used it! I'm also glad your buddy seems to be unclamped and feeling better (he's not the only one!) Wishing you much luck. Dropsy is very serious but when caught early, the fish CAN survive it.

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Baytril is good, but I've always heard of it being administered by injection :idont

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Baytril is fine but loses potency quickly when mixed in a solution. As long as it is kept powdered right up until administration it should still be fairly effective.

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Yeah I googled it as soon as I got home and only found things on the injections...but the vet tells me that's what they use in the Netherlands and she's used it with success.... Although she also said in her experience fish in franks situation die... A little contradictory, however there is always a language barrier for me. So I have to factor that in as causing the confusion. It came in a , 5% solution, it was already in a bottle, she just syringes it out. Who knows. She did me give antibiotics and let me grill her on options for 10 minutes without charging me for a consult though, which was lovely.

I'm glad it's ok because we added it last night anyway. I'm still going to try and find the other meds, so if the baytril doesn't fix him completely maybe it'll slow the progression. she said 3 days is a course but if I'm getting results I can go back for another 3 days worth.

Generally how long until I start to see results, if I'm going to see them? What should I notice? His swelling reduce and scales lay down? Behaviourally he's still exactly the same, eating, Unclamped etc. he's hovering a little since in qt but he hates it in there, although he's doing much better than the first time (with his head injury).

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Oh I forgot, last night I read a fact sheet on baytril that said mineral cations such as magnesium can reduce it's effectiveness. Should I leave the Epsom in? It's been a very long time since chemistry so sorry if this is a silly question :)

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Many people believe that dropsy is irreversible, but we have seen cases where the fish has recovered.  Dropsy is caused by a problem with the kidneys, usually brought about by a bacterial infection.  If the kidneys are permanently damaged, it is likely that the dropsy will occur again in the future.  

 

If Baytril is truly inhibited by Magnesium, then it would probably be wise to remove the Epsom before treating.  That may be another reason why injection is the common method of delivery for Baytril.  See what the moderators think  :idont

Edited by Jared

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Many people believe that dropsy is irreversible, but we have seen cases where the fish has recovered.  Dropsy is caused by a problem with the kidneys, usually brought about by a bacterial infection.  If the kidneys are permanently damaged, it is likely that the dropsy will occur again in the future.  

 

If Baytril is truly inhibited by Magnesium, then it would probably be wise to remove the Epsom before treating.  That may be another reason why injection is the common method of delivery for Baytril.  See what the moderators think  :idont

 

 

I agree I used it in the Shot forum never the water born kind... If it says it has a issue with the Epsom salt. I would take it out of the tank and just use the Baytril by its self for now... After treatment then use the Epsom :)

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Great thank you.

Epsom is out, 100% WC and second day dose of baytril is in.

I think he looks a lot less swollen, still swollen, but I think he's a lot smaller behind the gills... Or is that just wishful thinking? What amazes me is his colour change 24 Hours after being quarantined, It happened last time I put him in quarantine as well, he hates it. Last time he went back to normal colours the second he was back in his tank with his friends. He is still Unclamped, swimming around and eating like nothing is wrong... I'm undecided as to whether the pineconing is worse or not... Maybe it's the same...

image_zpslyqitliq.jpeg

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I've been doing some research on enrofloxacin (baytril). It seems baths/immersion are doable, and have been done for a while for bacterial infections, however the dosage is quite a bit higher than what I have. It's delivered/absorbed more efficiently orally or via injection, so in a bath you need higher concentrations...

I've been searching my uni vet/animal science databases but I'm not a science student so I have no idea where to find decent information there, though I found some articles on google scholar, again, I'm not a science student and they're making my head spin, they're a few years old and I'm not sure of their quality or validity.

Sharon, or anyone else, can you weigh in here? I'm happy to post the article links and a link to another forum that discusses this if I'm allowed?

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I've been doing some research on enrofloxacin (baytril). It seems baths/immersion are doable, and have been done for a while for bacterial infections, however the dosage is quite a bit higher than what I have. It's delivered/absorbed more efficiently orally or via injection, so in a bath you need higher concentrations...

I've been searching my uni vet/animal science databases but I'm not a science student so I have no idea where to find decent information there, though I found some articles on google scholar, again, I'm not a science student and they're making my head spin, they're a few years old and I'm not sure of their quality or validity.

Sharon, or anyone else, can you weigh in here? I'm happy to post the article links and a link to another forum that discusses this if I'm allowed?

 

Sure post the links... The more we know the better we are to help everyone :)

 

Can the Vet give you a higher amount? can you show them what you need ? I did that once with a Vet too my Fancy Goldfish book and told her I needed Baytril... :)

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