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Please Help! Poor Pudge Has a Hole in His Wen

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Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) -

* Nitrite Level(Tank) - 0

* Nitrate level(Tank) 5-20 depending on how close it is to water change

* Ammonia Level(Tap) - 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap) -

* Nitrate level(Tap) - 0 

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 6.8 I’ve recently added a some crushed coral to a small media bag to try a raise it a bit

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 7

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? - API Liquid Kit

* Water temperature? 72

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 50 gallon - 36X20X12 inches.  It’s been running for 3 months, but only a little over a month with goldfish.  I did a fishless cycle and used some seeded material from my tropical tank.    

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 110 HOB and EHEIM 2217 Canister 

* How often do you change the water and how much?  I change the water at least once every seven days sometimes as often as once every 5 days.  I change 50-80% of the water.  

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? The last water change was on Sunday, 2/28 and I changed about 80%.  

* How many fish in the tank and their size?  I have two goldfish.  They’re both about 6 inches.  I also have some carbon rili shrimp, nerites, and mystery snails.  

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Repashy Soilent Green - 2-3 times a day in teeny, tiny pieces.  Peas a couple times a week in place of regular food.  Frozen blood worms once every couple weeks in place of regular food.  

* Any new fish added to the tank?  The two goldfish were added at the same time from the same importer.  

* Any medications added to the tank?  PraziPro - I just began treating for flukes - one round and fish are gasping so much less.  I plan on doing more rounds to make sure that the eggs are killed.  

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  - I had PraziPro in the tank for 3 days and then I did a major water change and put the carbon back in.  I plan on removing the carbon and dosing again on 3/1.  

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Hole in wen (head?) - after reading hours and hours about this I’m more confused than ever

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?  - There were closed gills and gasping at the surface despite the two filters and 3 airstones running, so I began treatment for flukes, which has greatly reduced my fish surfacing.  

 

I’ve been closely monitoring my goldfish for the past month.  I’m new to fish-keeping.  I’ve had a successful (blue shrimp reproducing like crazy and healthy fish :) ) tropical tank for a year and decided I wanted to start a goldfish tank.  After everything was set up and cycled I ordered two fish from a highly reputable importer of goldfish who has lengthy quarantines.  

 

My purple butterfly telescope appears to be fine apart from the flukes.  He only started gasping at the surface a week and a half ago, and that has pretty much stopped after the first treatment of prazipro.  

 

My lemon head oranda ingot has had issues since I first got him.  I could tell from the auction picture before purchasing that there was a slight depression on the lateral line on both sides of his head, and the left side seemed to be much deeper and slightly pinkish.  However, I loved his little fish face and bought him anyway.  When I received the fish, there was a definite depression/crater on the left side and it was more red than pink, but not bleeding - more like broken blood vessels under the wen, which confused me because I thought there wasn’t really blood in the wen because of wen trimming I’ve seen.  I figured it was maybe stress due to shipping, so I decided to let the fish calm down and wait to see if the redness got better.  The redness went back to a pink for a while, but then proceeded to get redder.  The oranda went to the surface from day one.  I didn’t know if this was food seeking behavior, even though I feed sinking food (and the importer is supposed to as well).  Then I thought maybe there wasn’t enough aeration in the tank with an Aquaclear 110 and 3 airstones (air pump - Hydrofarm AAPA15L 6-Watt 15-LPM Active Aqua Air Pump with 4 Outlets).  I had been considering buying a canister and thought maybe even more agitation would make the oranda comfortable, so I bought one and added it to the tank.  The oranda was still gasping and then my butterfly telescope started going to the surface, so even though I wouldn’t classify either as lethargic, they definitely couldn’t breathe and the prazi is helping with that.  In addition to my Oranda’s breathing difficulty I noticed some pimples on his wen.  I did some research and found that a lot of people say that it is just normal wen growth.  I then thought that his wen was filling in along the lateral line and maybe he was recovering from something and that’s why there was a depression.  The right side of his wen did fill in a bit.  However the left side above his eye now has a large crater where his wen has deteriorated.  The crater is pink and white for the most part.  

 

What is this caused by and what should I do to save him?  Also he still needs at least another dose of Prazipro for flukes, so what treatment for his wen/head will work with this?  

 

I have been reading up on different treatments for some of the possible causes and getting medicines (and just general meds for sick goldfish first aid).  I have metronidazole, peroxide, neosporin ointment and cream on hand right now.  I have kanaplex, oxolinic acid, debride ointment and bio-bandage on the way.  

 

Thanks for reading my long post and thanks in advance for any advice!  I greatly appreciate people taking their time to help!  I really want Pudge to get better.  

 

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Edited by shakaho

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Oh Pudge! Thanks for all of your information and pictures. A moderator or disease assistant will be by soon to give you guidance. In the meantime, do you have a QT tank (10 gallon min)?

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I don't have a QT tank bc I wasn't planning on getting any more fish, but I can pick up another tank if it's necessary to treat him separately.  

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Sometimes when treating a goldfish, it would be best to separate them into QT especially if antibiotics are involved. Some antibiotics can kill your cycle which will be a bummer to have happen in your main tank.

 

For my QT, I have a 10 gallon tank, a heater, and a small hob filter for mostly water circulation (just having an airstone would also be fine).

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What medications do you have on hand or available?I'd want to swab that with methylene blue or hydrogen peroxide in the meantime, and he will likely need a course of antibiotics.

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Hope Pudge feels better.

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Thanks.  I have metronidazole, peroxide, neosporin ointment and cream on hand right now.  I have kanaplex, oxolinic acid, debride ointment and bio-bandage on the way.  

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Clean the hole well with peroxide, then fill it with Neosporin ointment and return the fish to the tank. This may adequately treat the wen ulcer. At least it will keep it from getting worse.

 

For future reference, if possible, please test your tank water before a water change.  We have the most interest in how "bad" the parameters get.  :)  (I italicized your answers on the form to make it easier to read.)

 

Basically, you have given your fish half a prazi treatment.  Since they are showing fluke symptoms, let's do a full  round of Prazipro for the whole tank. 

 

​Do a large water change. 

Add the Prazipro to the tank.

If you do any water changes in the next week,  add Prazipro to the new water.

At the end of the week, do a large water change.  You do not have to use any carbon

 

Then let's do a week of salt bath.

 

A​dd 1 teaspoon of salt for each gallon of water.  This gives you 0.1% salt.

After 12 hours, again add 1 teaspoon of salt for each gallon of water.  This gives you 0.2% salt.

After another 12 hours, add another teaspoon of salt per gallon of water.  This gives you 0.3% salt. 

If you change any water during the week, add 3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon of salt to the new water. 

At the end of the week, remove the salt with a large water change.

 

Then repeat the Prazi treatment above.

 

Before we do any antibiotic treatment, you must have a separate container for Pudge.  A shallow 10 gallon plastic storage tote actually works better than a 10 gallon aquarium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks so much. I'll try and get the QT tub after work today and I will definitely do the peroxide swab and ointment. I have aquarium salt on hand for next weeks' salt bath and plenty of prazi for this weeks' treatment. Do you know which antibiotic will be the best choice in case the salt and ointment don't help? I want to order it as soon as possible in case he gets worse. Thanks again; I really appreciate it!

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Sharon have great advice - it's good to know you're stocked up in case we need further treatment but if we can keep the wen hole clean and stop any further topical damage or ulceration then chances are additional prazi rounds will do the trick.

Follow her excellent and detailed advice - keep us posted if something changes for the worse.

I'd be recommending metronidazole and triple sulfa if additional treatments were needed after the fluke rounds, so make sure you have 2-4 weeks of those on hand just in case if you're looking to stock up.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Thanks for the antibiotic suggestion.  I'll order the triple sulfa.  I read some place that you're not supposed to reapply peroxide because it can damage healing tissue.  Am I supposed to reapply ointment?  Thanks again!

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The ointment should stay in place, since it doesn't dissolve in water.  If it comes off, we'll deal with it.  The bio bandage may be a next step.

 

You should be able to get triple sulfa at the pet store.

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I did a large water change and started the prazipro dose. I cleaned the ulcer with peroxide last night and it was actually quite a bit bigger than the pictures led me to believe. I got some ointment on, but most of it fell out when he returned to the tank. The bio-bandage I ordered is expected to be delivered sometime this week, so I won't try more ointment until I have something to set it with. While I used the peroxide swab, Pudge seemed to have bled a lot, although I don't really know what a lot of blood is for a goldfish. This morning he looked extremely pale and lethargic. He's wedging himself into corners of the tank. I don't know if this is from losing blood, the ulcer/infection getting worse/systemic, the stress of being handled, and or the prazipro. I put a little bit of food in the tank this morning and he perked up a teeny bit and swam by it. I didn't get to see him actually eat a piece bc I was getting ready for work; he then went back to hiding by the spray bar and heater. I attempted to get a 10 gallon storage tote last night but they didn't have any that were 40 qts. They only had smaller or much larger plastic containers that I would have to brace to keep steady, so I picked up a regular ten gallon tank during lunch today. I was wondering if I should move him into the quarantine tank today, or let him rest so he doesn't get more stressed with handling. I was also wondering if I should start dosing antibiotics. I have metroplex ready, but the triple sulfa won't arrive for a few days (the fish stores around me have very limited stocking). Is a product like stress guard worth using with him? I'll try to get an updated picture of him when I get home. Thanks again for all your help! Sorry that I have a million questions.

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You can try this "first aid" treatment.  Get some denture powder and some iodine.  Sprinkle some denture powder in the ulcer.  Drip in a bit of iodine, then add more denture powder so that you have a paste.  You can then put the fish back in the water.  

 

No to stress guard.  You can move the fish to the QT and start the metro if you wish.

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