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Legarthic Fish has me worried


fancyblackgold

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If any of you have read this: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123738-a-rough-few-months/ you will know that two of my fish died recently after being inactive for a while. Well now two more fish are showing signs similar to the ones that died and I am stomped as to what is causing this and how to fix it! Plus a few are having some possible related issues.

 

One fish are showing no symptoms of being ill other than being inactive near the bottom for long periods of time. I cannot find anything on the fish to explain this. He has a ulcer near his mouth for a decent amount of time. His has a little "white stuff" coming out of his wen.

The other fish are showing a few signs, other than being inactive. There seems to be wounds or red spots at least in the wen, when handled often times white "stuff" comes out of the wen. Another of my wenned fish has had a lot of white spots all over his wen (plus a lot of wen growth) which acts the same.

Now as I examined the fish for this post, I notice that my lionchu (fish no. 2) has some things attached to his scales - please see the pictures for more.

 

Test Results for the Following:

  • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) 5
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.2 pH. Around 10 KH. GH is larger than 21.
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7 pH. Around 10 KH. GH is larger than 21.
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Strips from eSHA.
    • * Water temperature? 21 Celsius
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 175 gallons and for a year.
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? A fx5 and Fx6 filter, each providing around 608 gallons per hour.
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? At least 75% every week.
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday and 85-90%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 8 and ranging from 5 cm to 15 cm.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? I use AquaSafe with every WC
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? I feed mainly pellets (Hikari, NatureFoods), Repharsy (Solient Green) and peas + live foods once in a while. Often they get feed 3-4 times a day.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? Not since December. But added 3 new fish, one of which are now sick.
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Not at this point.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. I did two rounds of Flukes (with 2,5 weeks in between) in January/February with each lasting 1 week. Treated all fish with salt before.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Raised spots different places on fish no. 2 and wen oozing white stuff when pressed. Wen also has dark spots, that look like holes or wounds.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Both fish eats, but will remain still and inactive for long periods of times. Fish no.2 floats without moving and then comes to himself for a bit. This happens a few times a day.

Pictures and video follow in a bit.

 

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Can't seem to edit my first post!

 

I will add another fish to the list, but not as worried about this one. It is my pandamoor, Theodora, who is consistently having zits on her head for a few weeks.

 

Theodora and her zits:

P1030687.jpg

P1030690.jpg

P1030691.jpg

 

Lio and his wen oozing with white stuff - you can see it coming out here:

P1030680.jpg

P1030680.jpg

 

This was Lio before I used Fluke Solve:

P1090652.jpg

 

The observant watcher will notice that he has lost one of his pompoms since this photo was taken.

 

Maxx (lionchu, fish no. 2) and his weird spots. They are hard to see as they are orange/red like his scales:

ee5c5f60-cfb3-4e64-93a4-ec2e5f576169.jpg

e61d613b-b814-40be-8ad8-7ba07e44017d.jpg

P1030668.jpg

 

Maxx in the tank, floating:

http://vid146.photobucket.com/albums/r244/MrJacket/20160229_180201.mp4

 

Walter (fish no. 1) and his wen spots:

P1030695.jpg

He also have similar spots like Lio, but smaller.

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Hey there! What meds do you have available? I'm thinking of a full metro round and paraguard to cover the parasitic bass and any secondary infections, and treating everyone given the multiple fish showing symptoms.

If you'd like we can reserve the metro for the fish with active ulcers and lethargy and not treat any fish still soaking normal or with no external symptoms, but I'd like to paraguard them all.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Bummer on the medication availability - lots of harsh chemicals but few antibiotics.

Your gentian violet (methylrosaline) should work in place of the paraguard, but I've not dosed that in aquariums, only mammals. Can you link me to the brand you are using online so I can see the dosage and contraindications? I'm not positive how your filter will react either, but in concerned about reoccurrence if we do not get a parasite treatment through that entire system.

The NT Labs Anti Internal Bacteria looks promising for gram positive, but I can't find an ingredient list anywhere. Does anyone have one handy or can find one on the Internet?

http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/products/Anti-Internal-Bacteria-(Aquarium)-%2310.html

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Bummer on the medication availability - lots of harsh chemicals but few antibiotics.

Your gentian violet (methylrosaline) should work in place of the paraguard, but I've not dosed that in aquariums, only mammals. Can you link me to the brand you are using online so I can see the dosage and contraindications? I'm not positive how your filter will react either, but in concerned about reoccurrence if we do not get a parasite treatment through that entire system.

The NT Labs Anti Internal Bacteria looks promising for gram positive, but I can't find an ingredient list anywhere. Does anyone have one handy or can find one on the Internet?

http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/products/Anti-Internal-Bacteria-(Aquarium)-%2310.html

 

This is the brand I have: http://www.oase-livingwater.com/en_EN/water-garden/products/fml/pond-treatments-fish-medicines-pharmaceuticalaforaornamentalafish-antiparasite.10880.html and here is a "how-to-use" http://www.oase-livingwater.com/fileadmin/dp/media/images/Gebrauchsanleitungen/DOK_PRD_GA_15871-GA-AntiParasit-01.pdf

 

I've used this before on several occasions without any noticeable reaction from the filters. 

 

Can you try and find a similar product in the koi line? http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/categories/Koi?page=1 these are what I know I can get, also the product line from Tripond (can't find a  webpage, but also used for koi). Fx I can get NT Labs here: http://koihulen.dk/labs-care-c-85_86.html or http://koiimport.dk/category/koi-care-bredt-program-170/ - they also have Tripond: http://koiimport.dk/category/tripond-sygdomsbehandling-169/

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Thanks for the info! That looks like a good basic medication for killing parasites and fungus.

I'm sorry about the other link but I can't read... Dutch? Basically I'd like to pair an antibiotic with the acriflavine/gentian violet mixture. That should be good dosed as is for one round, please just keep the tank as dark as possible as they are UV sensitive and break down quickly with light.

If you cannot find an antibiotic formula locally or order one online I'd recommend daily small water changes to keep their environment pristine and lessen the chance of a secondary infection.

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Taryl, due to the spot on the wen, i would recommend adding tri-sulfa in addition to any other antibiotic you suggest. tri-sulfa is available in AU over the counter, it should be available in Denmark also.  i will have a look online for other options in about 3-4 hours.

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Taryl, due to the spot on the wen, i would recommend adding tri-sulfa in addition to any other antibiotic you suggest. tri-sulfa is available in AU over the counter, it should be available in Denmark also. i will have a look online for other options in about 3-4 hours.

Yep, that's why I originally wanted an antibiotic, we are thinking along the same lines. Both the bacterial and parasitic need treating. If triple sulfa is available that would be ideal!

Fortunately the gentian violet compound should be mildly antibacterial and the acriflavine should act topically, but I'd feel better with an antibiotic in the mix.

OP, can you research the availability of triple sulfa in your area? If you can obtain human or livestock antibiotics (preferably gram positive) we could work with that as well.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Thanks for the info! That looks like a good basic medication for killing parasites and fungus.

I'm sorry about the other link but I can't read... Dutch? Basically I'd like to pair an antibiotic with the acriflavine/gentian violet mixture. That should be good dosed as is for one round, please just keep the tank as dark as possible as they are UV sensitive and break down quickly with light.

If you cannot find an antibiotic formula locally or order one online I'd recommend daily small water changes to keep their environment pristine and lessen the chance of a secondary infection.

 

Danish, but close. Generally speaking I can get the following: Acriflavin,  F.M.G-Mixture (Formaldehyd and Malachite green), Fungus & Parasite fix (similar to the one I have), Formaldehyd, Malachite Green, Permanganat DIP within NT Labs. With Tri-Pond I can get a Bacteria, Broad spectrum, Worm cure, and parasite cure.

So the Oase is the gentian violet mix? Just so I have it clear and do the right thing.

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Taryl, due to the spot on the wen, i would recommend adding tri-sulfa in addition to any other antibiotic you suggest. tri-sulfa is available in AU over the counter, it should be available in Denmark also.  i will have a look online for other options in about 3-4 hours.

 

Can you give me a clue in what kinds of medication you will find this? My searches are not giving any results.

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Taryl, due to the spot on the wen, i would recommend adding tri-sulfa in addition to any other antibiotic you suggest. tri-sulfa is available in AU over the counter, it should be available in Denmark also. i will have a look online for other options in about 3-4 hours.

Yep, that's why I originally wanted an antibiotic, we are thinking along the same lines. Both the bacterial and parasitic need treating. If triple sulfa is available that would be ideal!

Fortunately the gentian violet compound should be mildly antibacterial and the acriflavine should act topically, but I'd feel better with an antibiotic in the mix.

OP, can you research the availability of triple sulfa in your area? If you can obtain human or livestock antibiotics (preferably gram positive) we could work with that as well.

 

 

Most are controlled and you will need a doctor to proscribe it for you. But if you can guide me to what kinds of medication that I will find it in, it will be easier for me to find.

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have you ever attempted to bring in fish meds from neighbouring countries?  :donthit:

 

Yes :) Ordered my Fluke Solve from the UK and gotten meds and food from Ebay on several occasions. But it often takes a few weeks for it to get here, so that is why I rather not depend on it for this.

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have you ever attempted to bring in fish meds from neighbouring countries?  :donthit:

 

Yes :) Ordered my Fluke Solve from the UK and gotten meds and food from Ebay on several occasions. But it often takes a few weeks for it to get here, so that is why I rather not depend on it for this.

 

 

i have searched high and low in Denmark for fish meds. and because "Denmark did not introduce a special law to approve fish medicines", there are none available to the public without Vet visits and prescriptions.. so, for the time being, i think it's wise that you keep your fish in 0.2% salt whilst you wait for meds to arrive from other countries.

 

if you can afford a little bit extra for expedient shipping, that may get it to you faster. i recommend the tri-sulfa (otherwise known as triple sulfa), but wait for what your other team members who are helping to make their recommendation for which antibiotic they would like you to order. then find a seller which offers both products so that you can save $ on shipping costs.

 

this is the best advice i can give where it concerns getting a hold of the medicines for your fish.

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have you ever attempted to bring in fish meds from neighbouring countries?  :donthit:

 

Yes :) Ordered my Fluke Solve from the UK and gotten meds and food from Ebay on several occasions. But it often takes a few weeks for it to get here, so that is why I rather not depend on it for this.

 

 

i have searched high and low in Denmark for fish meds. and because "Denmark did not introduce a special law to approve fish medicines", there are none available to the public without Vet visits and prescriptions.. so, for the time being, i think it's wise that you keep your fish in 0.2% salt whilst you wait for meds to arrive from other countries.

 

if you can afford a little bit extra for expedient shipping, that may get it to you faster. i recommend the tri-sulfa (otherwise known as triple sulfa), but wait for what your other team members who are helping to make their recommendation for which antibiotic they would like you to order. then find a seller which offers both products so that you can save $ on shipping costs.

 

this is the best advice i can give where it concerns getting a hold of the medicines for your fish.

 

 

Yes and this can hardly be news at this point, that Denmark has a very strict regulation with medication for fish. I write this every time and yet it seems to surprise you all every time. This is why I look at pond medication - because that is not regulated as hard! And I have a hard time believing that the solution for this problem cannot be found within the pond products I've found and listed earlier in this thread. I've listed the active substance, since it was hard to read the labels of the products and the product groups, though it was this information I copied and pasted here.

 

I've ordered ParaGuard, but no idea when it will be here. I'm trying to buy tri sulfate, but this has proven a bit hard to find. I just wrote to one seller on Ebay in hope of getting a discount on multiple products including this, but I'm not willing to pay 100$ for shipping!

 

Now, my fish are getting worse - so I need an clear answer:

What should I do?

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I just saw a new Article about Denmark and how they have banned all Fish Meds... How horrible this is to the fish ppl... Im sorry.

 

But with all that we are trying to figure out the best way to go.... I would like to see if you can find some colloidal silver 500ppm min if you can.... Dont know if you can find that, but its another antibiotic... sometimes works some times it wont....

 

Just trying to find things you can use :)

 

:hug

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I already indicated for you to treat with your gentian/acriflavine medicine (the methylrosaniline one you discussed having on hand). Follow the course on the label as it seems to be a good one and sufficiently long, and we can assess from there. Antibiotics would be ideal but got can start there to handle the parasite issue I suspect is the main cause, with bacterial infections being secondary.

No salt in the tank while treating, as that med has formalin and it will react badly to salt. You can do increased salt after treatment to discourage infection.

We don't remember the specific med situation in every country that isn't our own and the bulk of users are not in Denmark. It isn't personal. We spent yesterday discussing this on the back end to try and find a workable solution for you, but we are volunteers with busy lives and not everything comes over from smoothly or quickly. Patience and reminding us or asking questions if you're confused, okay?

And the sad fact is that we cannot really help a fish with a bacterial infection in a country that doesn't allow the proper treatment. We have to try other things that are less effective and often experimental, and they won't always work. I'm sorry, but if you cannot order what you need we are limited in being able to help you. The medications list you provided we scoured and found nothing that suited the role of antibiotic - though this med you have should be antiseptic, antifungal, antibacterial, and mildly anthelmintic.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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I just saw a new Article about Denmark and how they have banned all Fish Meds... How horrible this is to the fish ppl... Im sorry.

 

But with all that we are trying to figure out the best way to go.... I would like to see if you can find some colloidal silver 500ppm min if you can.... Dont know if you can find that, but its another antibiotic... sometimes works some times it wont....

 

Just trying to find things you can use :)

 

:hug

 

Yes, it quite terrible. They have not banned fish meds, they just require an application (which costs money and time) and then that you add certain information on the labels (money again), which no company is willing to do as Denmark is quite small and it just won't be viable to do to earn money as well. For some reason, they still allow pond medication, so you can still get hold of some kinds of medication here. But just about anything strong will not be allowed here, as they protect the water quite a lot.

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I already indicated for you to treat with your gentian/acriflavine medicine (the methylrosaniline one you discussed having on hand). Follow the course on the label as it seems to be a good one and sufficiently long, and we can assess from there. Antibiotics would be ideal but got can start there to handle the parasite issue I suspect is the main cause, with bacterial infections being secondary.

No salt in the tank while treating, as that med has formalin and it will react badly to salt. You can do increased salt after treatment to discourage infection.

We don't remember the specific med situation in every country that isn't our own and the bulk of users are not in Denmark. It isn't personal. We spent yesterday discussing this on the back end to try and find a workable solution for you, but we are volunteers with busy lives and not everything comes over from smoothly or quickly. Patience and reminding us or asking questions if you're confused, okay?

And the sad fact is that we cannot really help a fish with a bacterial infection in a country that doesn't allow the proper treatment. We have to try other things that are less effective and often experimental, and they won't always work. I'm sorry, but if you cannot order what you need we are limited in being able to help you. The medications list you provided we scoured and found nothing that suited the role of antibiotic - though this med you have should be antiseptic, antifungal, antibacterial, and mildly anthelmintic.

 

I did a big WC and added the pond medication I have on hand - lights are turned off. I will run the 7 day treatment plan as advised with the medication and then do a WC and add salt to the tank. Hopefully by then my ParaGuard will have arrived and I will do a round of this too.

 

Fish are being inactive right now, with my big lionchu Lio also being quite inactive - he started doing this last night. Maxx, my tiny lionchu with the weirds bumps, was very inactive today, he had trouble staying away from the filter intake. My R/W ranchu Walter is being the same really as before. Inactive, confined to one corner of the tank. So hopefully they will all perk up with the help of the medication.

 

I've greatly reduced the amount I feed, so now they are getting feed twice a day. I feed sinking pellets and have given them a lot of live foods (live misqiuto larvae and FBW) instead of pellets. They also get peas. This is all that they get.

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A little update here. I have now given the tank medicine twice as per instructions of the pond medication that I have. I have had the lights off (which has almost killed my floating plants).

 

Update on the fish:

 

Lionchu Lio is doing good. His wen is spotless and being a bit more active.

 

Pandamoor, Theodora is having a lot less "zits" and they seem smaller. There was a clear dropoff in the number and size after the first round and second round of medication. She does have red streaks in her tail and fins.

 

Ranchu, Walter is being very inactive and bottom sitting quite a lot. A bit worried about him and that this might not be able to get him well again.

 

Lionchu, Maxx has gotten some special attention as I was very worried about him (still am). I kept him in a small bowl floating in the tank with an air stone and then change the water 3-5 times a day with tank water (medicated). When in the main tank, he was completely lifeless and would float without moving at all for longer periods of time. It helped him a lot being in this bowl, as he didn't have to spend as much energy swimming around the tank and compete for food. But he would still be inactive in the bowl, but not nearly as much as in the tank.

 

The last two fish here is the ones I most concerned about and they were the main reason for this post. I've seen a slight improvement in them, but they are not completely well yet. Plus I'm concerned about Theodora and her red streaks.

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hun, would you be able to post a video update on all the fish and your concerns for them? i don't know for the med you are treating with, so i can't offer any guidance on that. hopefully Taryl will be along soon to help out. but i know it will be very handy for her to be able to see what condition your fish are in.

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