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DieselPlower

Need some help with Beefcake please.

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Hi. Can I please get some help with The Beef?  I came home from work today and see him bottom sitting.  After closer examination I see his dorsal fin is all torn up, he has some red in his tail fin, and some white spots at the beginning of his tail fin that I do not recall seeing before.  No other fins seem to be degrading and I do not see other white spots anywhere. No other fish exhibiting any symptoms other than my big dumb oranda being upside down sometimes as usual. Pictures and a video will follow shortly.

 

 

  • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) 50 ppm
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap)  0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)  8
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API dorps
    • * Water temperature? 68 ish
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 125 2 years
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 fluval 405, 1 aqueon 55/75
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% every other week
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Sunday will be 2 weeks
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 large, 1 medium, 2 small, 2 bristlenose pleco
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? None, well water.  Have Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Hikari lionhead 2 - 3 times per day
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? no
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Maybe a year ago a couple rounds of Rid Ich Plus (oops) and a few rounds of epsom salt and prazi
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? a few white spots on tail, frayed dorsal, red veins in tail but not a lot
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? bottom sitting but does swim around

 

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Hmm, that's odd for a fish that has been otherwise healthy and in a tank where everyone else is happy. Nitrate is a bit high and may have been stressing him a bit and left him open to an infection just from a weakened immune system but it's tough to say without pictures and seems unlikely at that concentration - it's elevated but just not that high ofherwise.

Has your filter been cleaned recently? Do you have your kH and gH available?

Looking forward to those and hopefully Beefcake (which is the best goldfish name ever) will be on the mend soon.

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50 percent water change should have been 80% but I cant go back and edit.

 

edit:  I corrected it for you.

Edited by shakaho

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Hmm, that's odd for a fish that has been otherwise healthy and in a tank where everyone else is happy. Nitrate is a bit high and may have been stressing him a bit and left him open to an infection just from a weakened immune system but it's tough to say without pictures and seems unlikely at that concentration - it's elevated but just not that high ofherwise.

Has your filter been cleaned recently? Do you have your kH and gH available?

Looking forward to those and hopefully Beefcake (which is the best goldfish name ever) will be on the mend soon.

I rinsed all three filters within the last 2 weeks.  I was ashamed at how dirty the sponges in the canisters were.  Very dirty.  I dont have a test for kh and gh but when I bought this house I got a water test for the well.  It is extremely hard.  Over 300 whatever it is that they measure it by.

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Hardness 469 mg/l

Flourde .21 mg/l

chloride 46.4 mg/l

sulfate 52.1 mg/l

iron .5 mg/l

sodium 19 mg/l

 

This was for my well in 2003 when I bought the house.  Could be different now.

Edited by DieselPlower

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I see the pictures now. I'd buffer the water more and run a few rounds of prazi and see if that doesn't solve things. That's what I expect to see from pH instability and if you haven't kept your filters clear from debris there could just be too many dissolved organic solids in the water affecting the kH. Flukes alone could do it but I'm leaning toward the water chemistry being light on minerals or on the unstable side, which that nitrate makes me think is due to mulm and the effect of those organics breaking down.

If you cannot do a hardness test easily please gradually add in about 3 tablespoons of baking soda over the next few days, or whatever buffer you prefer (I am a fan of baking soda and wonder shells), and treat for flukes.

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Also he is not clamping at all.  Beefcake is very proud and always holds his dorsal high.

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I see the pictures now. I'd buffer the water more and run a few rounds of prazi and see if that doesn't solve things. That's what I expect to see from pH instability and if you haven't kept your filters clear from debris there could just be too many dissolved organic solids in the water affecting the kH. Flukes alone could do it but I'm leaning toward the water chemistry being light on minerals or on the unstable side, which that nitrate makes me think is due to mulm and the effect of those organics breaking down.

If you cannot do a hardness test easily please gradually add in about 3 tablespoons of baking soda over the next few days, or whatever buffer you prefer (I am a fan of baking soda and wonder shells), and treat for flukes.

Ok thanks for the advice and kind words. Can you explain. The word buffer for me a little more simply? That's what you mean by adding the baking soda? I can do that. I can also get the hardness test tomorrow.

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Any reason not to Prazi the entire 125? Will Plecos be OK with it?

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One other thing to note I just moved one of my pleco caves. Having disturbed the debris that has collected in there, I am seeing dozens of tiny thin white worms swimming in the tank. All are less than an inch long, about as thin of a piece of hair, white, and swim in an s movement. Very squiggly

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New development. I decided to do a 50% water change a bit earlier than my usual Sunday change. My tamasaba straight up died out of the blue while water was being siphoned out. No visual warning signs at all.

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:o omg! 

This is way beyond me, but I hope everything turns out for the best, especially for Beefcake. :heart

 

So sorrry about your tamasaba. :(

Edited by jenzaar

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I see the pictures now. I'd buffer the water more and run a few rounds of prazi and see if that doesn't solve things. That's what I expect to see from pH instability and if you haven't kept your filters clear from debris there could just be too many dissolved organic solids in the water affecting the kH. Flukes alone could do it but I'm leaning toward the water chemistry being light on minerals or on the unstable side, which that nitrate makes me think is due to mulm and the effect of those organics breaking down.

If you cannot do a hardness test easily please gradually add in about 3 tablespoons of baking soda over the next few days, or whatever buffer you prefer (I am a fan of baking soda and wonder shells), and treat for flukes.

Ok thanks for the advice and kind words. Can you explain. The word buffer for me a little more simply? That's what you mean by adding the baking soda? I can do that. I can also get the hardness test tomorrow.
This article is super helpful, especially the few first sections on KH. I think you'll see where I'm going with this :)

If you can get a hardness test that would be ideal, because then you can dial in whichever buffer product (marine buffer, Seachem gold, good old fashioned baking soda, whatever) more precisely. I don't care about general hardness, that isn't what I am suspecting is wrong, but given the filter situation you describe I believe KH and high dissolved organic solids are the culprit, and these symptoms are precipitated by that last tank situation.

The death of the tamasaba could very well go right along with osmotic shock, or it could be something else. But it fits with my guesses based on your information. If you wish to use baking soda as a buffer, we have instructions here:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/110296-stabilizing-your-tank-ph-with-sodium-bicarbonate-baking-soda/

Here are some more details on KH:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

I don't have an issue with trace minerals but if I did I'd consider using a buffer formula instead of just straight baking soda. I swear by wonder shells in combo with baking soda:

http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-water-conditioners/11442-505234/weco-weco-wonder-shell.html?utm_source=googleproductads&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CIGF0bvAlMsCFUWTfgodQRYKSw

A faster way to balance this is Seachem Replenish:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#replenish

Baking soda and wonder shells will maintain/raise an adequate KH, Replenish can help establish it.

Did that help at all? Clearing the organic debris out of the aquarium was great but I'm suspecting you had low KH and possibly a lot of organic acids. This causes stress. Stress can lead to even minor bacteria having blooms in the bodies of a weakened fish. Water changes, especially big ones, could have caused some osmotic shock in your tamasaba - pure conjecture but it fits the pattern.

If we can eliminate water quality and redox issues from the equation and that doesn't solve things we can go from there :)

This is an area I'm always researching and learning more and I really think it is the cornerstone of fish health, but I'm no expert. If anything I'm saying is confusing to you and the links don't clear it up I will do my best to break it down more simply for you. I'm in the middle of feeding my kids and listening the the debate and my brain may have switched details around!

Edited by Arctic Mama

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I hope Beefcake feels better soon! Sorry you lost your tamasaba :(

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New development. I decided to do a 50% water change a bit earlier than my usual Sunday change. My tamasaba straight up died out of the blue while water was being siphoned out. No visual warning signs at all.

 

That's scary.  Have you carefully examined the tamasaba for any lesions or abnormalities?  Doing some scrapes and looking at them under a microscope could be useful, but I don't think you have a scope.

 

Would you draw a bucket of water, test the pH, let it sit overnight and test again in the morning.  I want to compare that with the tank pH.

 

 

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Thank you both for the info and suggestions. Very helpful. I will buy the suggested items today. I do not have a microscope. I did examine the tamasaba visually very thoroughly and did not see anything unusual. One thing to note is that it died while i was removing water, not replacing it. I went to bed before being asked to test pH in a sample of water and then let it sit overnight and test again. Do I still want to do this or is it too late now?

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Also to note I put 2 bags of activated carbon into my aqueon 55/75 at 400 pgh the water should cycle through several times before I get home from work. I have not moved Beefcake to a QT because I can't find my small filter. I didn't want to put 400 gph on a 20 g.

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Sorry about Beefcake and the loss of your other fish.

 

BN pleco's are fine with prazi. They have a problem with salt above 0.1%.

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Kh 18 drops. I purchased replenish, prazipro, and I know I have a box of pure canning salt and Epsom salt at home. Heading to work a little late today oh well.

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That's quite high on the KH so you shouldn't have stability problems unless your organics are WAY high. We are chatting on the back end about what this could be to see if there are any more recommendations we could shake out. You won't be needing the baking soda with that KH so disregard my advice on that, but the replenish or something like wonder shells would still be just fine to dose and help with any osmotic stress, so dose the replenish as the label indicates and sit tight while we talk this over :)

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Thanks. There is no rush I won't be home for hours.

Last year Beefcake was bottom sitting upside down due to constipation which was treated with Epsom salt. He didn't have the shredding fin like he does now.

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Thank you both for the info and suggestions. Very helpful. I will buy the suggested items today. I do not have a microscope. I did examine the tamasaba visually very thoroughly and did not see anything unusual. One thing to note is that it died while i was removing water, not replacing it. I went to bed before being asked to test pH in a sample of water and then let it sit overnight and test again. Do I still want to do this or is it too late now?

Please do the test.  I want to how the pH changes with time (if it does) without  fish.

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PH tonight straight out of the tap is dark blue on the pH test which is the highest it reads 7.6 and it is light brown on the high range which is the lowest it reads at 7.4.

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