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Things seem to be going downhill fast


Phil B.

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Seven months without a problem, now things seem to all be going wrong at once. It started a couple of weeks back when my redcap started bottom sitting, and occasionally swimming at odd angles. I tried peas, and fasting, but nothing really seemed to help. When I noticed he was occasionally yawning, I decided to give them a dose of PraziPro, since they'd never actually been treated for flukes.
While he seems a bit more active today, my Pearlscale has started to hover on the survive. Totally different behavior from last night when he was full of energy. Now he just hovers just under the surface, only swimming normally when I come near the tank. He also seems to have a short transparent strand floating from one corner of his mouth. Meanwhile my black moor is behaving perfectly normal. Active and full of energy.

So t this point I'm at a loss, and worried sick.
 
 
 
 
Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level Tank 0.25
* Nitrite Level  0
* Nitrate level 0
* Ammonia Level 0
* Nitrite Level 0
* Nitrate level 0
* Ph Level, Tank  8
* Ph Level, Tap 7.6
 
 
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API liquid test kit.
 
* Water temperature? 70
 
* Tank size (how many gals.) 75 gallons that's been running for about 7 months.
 
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70 and 100.
 
* How often do you change the water and how much? 50% twice a week.
 
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 50% yesterday
 
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 fish, about 4 inches
 
* What kind of water additives or conditioners?
 
* What do you feed your fish and how often? gel food, Hikari purple, brine shrimp, NLS Thera A, ocassional peas
 
* Any new fish added to the tank? No
 
* Any medications added to the tank? PraziPro.
 
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Prazi added last night.
 
 * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The floaty pearlscale seems to have a short, clear strand protruding from the corner of his mouth.
 
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? While one fish has been bottom sitting quite a bit and swimming at an angle, my pearlscale has suddenly started sitting drifting just under the surface.

 

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Sorry to hear about your fish.

 

Please post a picture of your pearlscale, especially the strand protruding from its mouth. A video of both fish would even be better.

 

Do you use any water conditioner like Prime?

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Unfortunately the strand seems to have vanished. It was only a couple of mm's long, and resembled a strand of clear poop, fish mucus, or even a shed insect skin. And yes, I use Prime at every water change.

Let me see about grabbing a video.

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Here's a shot of the original symptom I was concerned over. Spot usually swims normally, though with a slight tilt. H only seems to lose his balance when he tries to change direction too quickly. He also bottom sits. I've tried fasting and peas, but with no change. Since they've never been treated for flukes, I decided now was as good a time as any.



https://goo.gl/photos/6fc5NUkJjwZiKxhe7

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I think that's a wise choice - if something's not working, definitely don't keep doing it. I'm not real experienced with fluke treatments, having only a small group of fish, so I'm sure someone here can give you some ideas what to do next. I don't know if the sitting means they have had flukes & them getting removed is making them feel poorly, or if the Prazi itself isn't agreeing with them. Hope your fish perk right up!

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hello Phil,

 

there is concern in your tank with both fish, the pearlscale and the redcap. the pealscale shows blood blotches at the armpit and is having difficulty to fully close his mouth. that is almost certain to be flukes related. the redcap oranda, i am not really certain why it's behaving as it is. i would recommend that you add salt to the tank also, both salt and prazi is the recommended for the treatment of flukes. if you like, you can add salt dips to the treatment plan. one every other day until you have executed 3 salt dips on all your stock sharing that tank.

 

since the moor is sharing the tank, i would recommend that you also salt dip that fish. you can salt dip them all together at the one time, if you are confident in what you are doing. all eyes on fish during this procedure. don't walk away from them until the salt dip is over and they are in their recovery tank (not in the main for recovery).

 

also, please update us on what water source it is that you are using and if you are using a dechlorinator, which one?

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hello Phil,

 

there is concern in your tank with both fish, the pearlscale and the redcap. the pealscale shows blood blotches at the armpit and is having difficulty to fully close his mouth. that is almost certain to be flukes related. the redcap oranda, i am not really certain why it's behaving as it is. i would recommend that you add salt to the tank also, both salt and prazi is the recommended for the treatment of flukes. if you like, you can add salt dips to the treatment plan. one every other day until you have executed 3 salt dips on all your stock sharing that tank.

 

since the moor is sharing the tank, i would recommend that you also salt dip that fish. you can salt dip them all together at the one time, if you are confident in what you are doing. all eyes on fish during this procedure. don't walk away from them until the salt dip is over and they are in their recovery tank (not in the main for recovery).

 

also, please update us on what water source it is that you are using and if you are using a dechlorinator, which one?

Hi, and thanks for your help. I realize I forgot to mention that I'm using PhosGuard in the tank to help with a brown algae problem. Should I remove it?

First for the water source. I'm using our towns local underground water supply, the same as I've always used. And I use Prime as my water conditioner.

I have to admit this is the first time I've deal with this issue, so I'm a little uncertain of what I'm doing. Since the pearlscale has never behaved like this before, I'm afraid I overreacted and and did a 50% water change last night. Should I go ahead and add back a half dose of PraziPro, or will I still get results if I leave it at 50% strength for the time being to see if the fish recover?  If memory serves, I need to continue the Prazi treatment for five days, then do a water change correct? Do I need to redose immediately, or give it a few days? 

 

You're also saying I need to treat with Prazi and salt at the same time, correct?

Also how much salt should I add to the tank? And will it harm the plants and the pond snail living in there with the fish? Also what strength should the salt dip be?

I apologize for all the questions. This is my first time dealing with all this, and I confess I've always been nervous about putting too many chemicals in my tank.

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an immediate change will be to remove any trace of the anti algae treatment.

 

i was using one a long time ago and my fish reacted badly to it. their slimecoat started becoming loose and peeling off and then they were very lethargic and sickly looking. how soon after you started using this did your fish begin to behave unusual? these products in my honest opinion should not be used in a fish tank. planted tank ok, but not with fish.

 

keep going with prazi treatment and the addition of salt. if you think your fish could benefit from the suggested salt dips, go ahead and do them. i would remove the snail during the prazi/salt treatment and i am not sure that anti algae treatments are safe for snails either.

 

what plants do you have? 

 

it's been a while since i have had to advise salt treatment to the tanks, since i have been mostly absent from the forums for about 12 months, but do check the link in my signature, it's Alex's instructions on what you need to do. i think it's 1 teaspoon for every 10 gallons to reach 0.1% and then 2 teaspoons for every 10 gallons to reach 0.2% but do double check that, please,

 

it is not unusual or uncommon for goldfish to react sluggishly to prazi treatment. especially if it's their first time at it.  i won't be concerned for that behaviour at the moment. i would be focusing more on the visible symptoms i mentioned earlier.

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an immediate change will be to remove any trace of the anti algae treatment.

 

i was using one a long time ago and my fish reacted badly to it. their slimecoat started becoming loose and peeling off and then they were very lethargic and sickly looking. how soon after you started using this did your fish begin to behave unusual? these products in my honest opinion should not be used in a fish tank. planted tank ok, but not with fish.

 

keep going with prazi treatment and the addition of salt. if you think your fish could benefit from the suggested salt dips, go ahead and do them. i would remove the snail during the prazi/salt treatment and i am not sure that anti algae treatments are safe for snails either.

 

what plants do you have? 

 

it's been a while since i have had to advise salt treatment to the tanks, since i have been mostly absent from the forums for about 12 months, but do check the link in my signature, it's Alex's instructions on what you need to do. i think it's 1 teaspoon for every 10 gallons to reach 0.1% and then 2 teaspoons for every 10 gallons to reach 0.2% but do double check that, please,

 

it is not unusual or uncommon for goldfish to react sluggishly to prazi treatment. especially if it's their first time at it.  i won't be concerned for that behaviour at the moment. i would be focusing more on the visible symptoms i mentioned earlier.

Ive gone ahead and removed the bag of Phosguard beads from the filter as suggested. Apart from adding the Prazi on Weds evening, I also cleaned the filter containing the stuff and removed one of the scrubbies, which greatly increased water flow. I hadn't though they might be the issue. I've been using them for about three months, while the redcaps problems first appeared about a month ago, they've gotten slowly worse the last week or so.

My plants are two species of Java Fern, and a small Anubias.

So if I'm reading your advice correctly, I should increase the Prazi back up to full strength, and add the salt tomorrow?

 

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the phosguard being THE issue or a contributing factor is a suspicion of mine. and most likely.

 

the Java Fern and the Anubias will survive the prazi/salt - remove the snail.

 

yes, prazi back to full strength, start salt tomorrow. if prazi pro, when you get to 0.2% salt please double dose the prazi.

 

here is how i resolved the black hair algae from my tank.

 

 

here is how i clean my plants every few months in order to reduce and control the regrowth of all algae.

 

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You removed the bag of phosguard.  Good.  Did you also change all of the contaminated water as Helen requested?  If not, the toxic phosgard is still in the tank.

 

0.1% salt is 1 teaspoon per gallon. 

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I guess I'll need to do another 50% water change this evening when I get home. Hmmm, 70 tsp of salt? That sure sounds like  lot.

I also have Epson salt on hand. If this alright to use, or should I visit the store for pickling salt?

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Epsom salt is MgSO4, not NaCl.  You need NaCl.

 

70 teaspoons = 23 tablespoons = ~ 1.5 cups.  However, this is for coarse aquarium salt.  For the very fine pickling salt, you use 3/4 of this or 1 cup.

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Ugh, I wasn't able to find pickling salt. Will Kosher salt do? The pacage lists only salt in the ingredients, and says on the back of the box tht there are no additives.

Everyone seems reasonably active today. Moving around the tank. I'm going to do another 50% wc in a minute, and clean one of the filters. If the salt is okay, I'll go ahead and add it, then give another dose of PraziPro.

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PhosGuard like the Seachem product? That is aluminum oxide (a solid and insoluble at a neutral/basic pH). Not the same thing as the algae treatments that come in a bottle (which I have tried and never again after having problems with my betta).

Granted no harm in removing it unless you know your phosphate levels are high (did you test?).

Hope your fish get better fast! They are beautiful.

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Thanks Butterfly. Yes, its the Seachem product that comes in small white beads that you put in a mesh bag and add it to your filter. I've recently had a problem with brown diatoms, and this was recommended as an effective treatment. Though to be honest, it's barely put a dent in it, and thankfully my plants have started to outgrow it.

 

So far I've added about a cup of salt in a .01 solution, and about a third of the recommended dose of Prazi.  I'm going to go take a nap for a few hours, and if all is well when I get up in a few hours, I'll increase the dosage, then the rest tomorrow. I jus want to make sure nobody is suffering any distress or ill effects.

Behavior wise the two sick fish are still fairly lethargic, but will occasionally move around the tank. The pearlscale wasn't interested in their gel food, but did eat a few pellets, twitching and rubbing against the bottom after eating the first. Otherwise he just hovers a few inches off the bottom.

The redcap seems to be grazing normally, but will still swim at a 45 degree angle and spat out a few mouthfuls of gel food.


The moor seems just as unconcerned and active as ever.

Edited by Phil B.
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