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gothicchick1100

sickly goldfish

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank): 0ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank): 0ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank): 10-20ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap): 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap): 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap): 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): usually 7.6-8.0
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master kit w/ drops 
      • * Water temperature? 20 - 22c
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 210 litres, 18 months
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? fluval fx6 canister filter
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 90% every week

 

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? large tank last night: 50%, hospital tank tonight: 60%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 6 fish all together, couple quite small, rest about 3 or so inches.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? once a day, and a fast day once or twice a week. Repashy Soilet Green gel food, hikari lionhead pellets, frozen bloodworm, tubifex.
  •  
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? none
  • * Any medications added to the tank? wormer plus, then salt
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. few rounds of wormer plus, 
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? red patches on fins near base and under chin, a couple splits in fins, and whiteish areas on parts of fins
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? bottom sitting, clamped fins, occasional 'spasms' (very faint jerking motion with some head shaking) has only happened once though.

 

 

hello everyone, for starters, i'm aware i'm overstocked, I'm waiting for my 400 litre tank to arrive next week. I bought a bigger fluval canister filter ready for the upgrade, when transferring over my old media i unfortunately lost some bacteria as some of my old media was not the correct shape to fit in the new filter, this has resulted in a mini cycle. I wasn't aware of any problems until once of my fantails started bottom sitting one morning, i thought it may be flukes so i added some wormer plus, the next day he was still acting lethargic, i tested the water and discovered 0.25 ammonia, i performed a 50% water change in the morning and another 50% water change in the evening. My fish instantly perked up and was the fine the next day as well, back to his old self. However the day after i woke to find him bottom sitting with clamped fins, red spots under chin and on fins, a few split fins and whiteish areas on the dorsal. I've put him in my 50 litre hospital tank, currently got salt up to 0.2% and am doing water changes everyday to keep everything at 0. He's still acting very lethargic (is still eating though) should i continue increasing salt to 0.3% or should i be treating with something else, i'm abit baffled as to what exactly is wrong with him, the ammonia was only very slight but he seems to have reacted very badly, really worried about him 

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A mod will be by soon. In the meantime: Is this the first time you've treated these fish with Wormer Plus? What other meds do you have on hand?

 

It is common for fish to react to being treated for flukes and other worms. The die off of these parasites can cause some of the symptoms you indicated.

 

Since you tap ph and tank ph are > 0.5 percent, you'll want to reduce the amount of water changed so the difference is <= 0.5. This will help to reduce any unnecessary stress.

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A mod will be by soon. In the meantime: Is this the first time you've treated these fish with Wormer Plus? What other meds do you have on hand?

 

It is common for fish to react to being treated for flukes and other worms. The die off of these parasites can cause some of the symptoms you indicated.

 

Since you tap ph and tank ph are > 0.5 percent, you'll want to reduce the amount of water changed so the difference is <= 0.5. This will help to reduce any unnecessary stress.

Hello there, thanks for the reply, i do routinely treat with the wormer plus, just because it says it's good to use it as a preventative. I live in the Uk so i haven't got a huge range like what is avaliable in the US, i have aquarium munster medi mor, seachem kanaplex, focus and metronidazole, i also have waterlife sterazin. For years i've had issues with PH, it always drops after a water change and shoots right back up to sometimes over 8 within a day or so, i've got nothing in the tank that would cause this, if i need to do large water changes to remove ammonia what can i do to prevent the ph issue?

Edited by gothicchick1100

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A mod will be by to tell you which meds to use if any.

 

In the meantime, regarding the ph, many of us have tap water whose ph rises within 24 hours. One option is to store water for 24 hours before a water change. That way the ph would have already risen before the water change. Is it possible for you to store water?

 

Another option is to only do a maxiumum 50% water change per day. That way the ph change is at most 0.5 per water change.

 

While the main tank is cycling, you could feed the fish less (same for the hospital tank) so that ammonia buildup is slower.

 

FYI - Prime will make the ammonia (and nitrite) less toxic to the fish for at least 24 hours. The amount of ammonia and nitrite would need to be <= 1.0.

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A mod will be by to tell you which meds to use if any.

 

In the meantime, regarding the ph, many of us have tap water whose ph rises within 24 hours. One option is to store water for 24 hours before a water change. That way the ph would have already risen before the water change. Is it possible for you to store water?

 

Another option is to only do a maxiumum 50% water change per day. That way the ph change is at most 0.5 per water change.

 

While the main tank is cycling, you could feed the fish less (same for the hospital tank) so that ammonia buildup is slower.

 

FYI - Prime will make the ammonia (and nitrite) less toxic to the fish for at least 24 hours. The amount of ammonia and nitrite would need to be <= 1.0.

with the hospital tank i fill up buckets and let them sit for a day before doing water changes, as i only need a small amount. i try my best for the bigger tank but it's pretty hard to store such a large ammount of water, do you just leave buckets standing around or do you have a better way of doing it? i think i'll have to just take out less water at a time.

 

got abit of an update, he's perked up as the evenings gone on, i've just fed him some peas and he's gobbled them up, dorsal is now completely up, the trouble is he tends to do this then go downhill again *fingers crossed*

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You can put an airstone in the bucket of water to help the ph rise sooner. The outgassing of the water seems to help the ph rise faster.

 

Do you know the kh of your tap water?

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You can put an airstone in the bucket of water to help the ph rise sooner. The outgassing of the water seems to help the ph rise faster.

 

Do you know the kh of your tap water?

 

i'll try that, thanks. I don't know it off the top of my head, i did test it a while back, it's always pretty high, i live in a hard water area.

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With a pH difference of 0.6 to1 pH unit, you should expect problems with a 90% water change.  Since your fish seem to tolerate this fairly well, try doing 50% changes twice a week.  

 

While prolonged exposure to 0.25 ppm ammonia does harm, it rarely causes symptoms.  Add to that  medication and a bit of pH shock, and it could make a fish pout.  

 

Seachem Prime, as Lisa pointed out, inactivates up to 1ppm ammonia.  However, this effect only lasts 48 hours, so you need to redose the Prime every two days (for the full tank volume) if you aren't doing a water change.

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With a pH difference of 0.6 to1 pH unit, you should expect problems with a 90% water change.  Since your fish seem to tolerate this fairly well, try doing 50% changes twice a week.  

 

While prolonged exposure to 0.25 ppm ammonia does harm, it rarely causes symptoms.  Add to that  medication and a bit of pH shock, and it could make a fish pout.  

 

Seachem Prime, as Lisa pointed out, inactivates up to 1ppm ammonia.  However, this effect only lasts 48 hours, so you need to redose the Prime every two days (for the full tank volume) if you aren't doing a water change.

so you think just leave him in qurantine for the time being until he recovers? will salt be benefical to him? i've just came to check on him, this morning he was active, then starting bottom sitting again, about 2 hours later he's active with long peroids of sitting. He also has a scale missing. Just had a better look and his fins are starting to shred and have a whiteish edge, finrot?

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You say you routinely treat with wormer plus.  How frequently have you done this and how long do you treat each time? When did this fish last receive treatment? Do you currently have wormer plus in the QT?

 

Can you find a praziquantel-based wormer, like Fluke solve?   

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You say you routinely treat with wormer plus.  How frequently have you done this and how long do you treat each time? When did this fish last receive treatment? Do you currently have wormer plus in the QT?

 

Can you find a praziquantel-based wormer, like Fluke solve?   

only every couple months or so. It's just a single dose treatment that stops working after 4 days. it would have been a couple months ago he was treated with it. I've only got salt in the quarantine tank, i'll see if i can get some fluke solve. Do yout think it is flukes?

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i've just ordered some fluke solve. He's now sitting on the bottom of the tank again, swims around for abit then continues to sit, at once point he was bumping into the tank sides, are we thinking flukes are responsbile?

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I have no idea what ails him, which caused me to ask all of these questions.  Bottom sitting, much like clamped fins, means the fish doesn't feel well for whatever reason -- rather like fatigue or a headache in humans -- a symptom of almost anything.   Have you seen any flashing or flared gills?

 

Flubendazole treats a variety of intestinal worms, but what I read suggests that it doesn't work well on flukes.

 

For example: "This is designed as a one-off treatment, but may require a second dose after 4 days in heavy infestations, or if using to cure gill flukes."

 

Praziquantel kills only flatworms, such as flukes and tapeworms, and has much less toxicity.  

 

Have you checked the pH on your aged water?  If not, please do so since I would like you to try very clean water as your next "treatment," and I don't want pH shock as a confusing factor.  He may be reacting to the Wormer Plus or even to the salt.

 

I'll give instructions once I know the pH of the aged tap water and of the QT.

Edited by shakaho

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I have no idea what ails him, which caused me to ask all of these questions.  Bottom sitting, much like clamped fins, means the fish doesn't feel well for whatever reason -- rather like fatigue or a headache in humans -- a symptom of almost anything.   Have you seen any flashing or flared gills?

 

Flubendazole treats a variety of intestinal worms, but what I read suggests that it doesn't work well on flukes.

 

For example: "This is designed as a one-off treatment, but may require a second dose after 4 days in heavy infestations, or if using to cure gill flukes."

 

Praziquantel kills only flatworms, such as flukes and tapeworms, and has much less toxicity.  

 

Have you checked the pH on your aged water?  If not, please do so since I would like you to try very clean water as your next "treatment," and I don't want pH shock as a confusing factor.  He may be reacting to the Wormer Plus or even to the salt.

 

I'll give instructions once I know the pH of the aged tap water and of the QT.

 

hello again, no flashing as such. Twice i've noticed him almost twitching and shaking his head, yesterday and a couple days before that. and ok, so make sure the ph of the aged water is as close as possible to the tank water, how much difference is enough to cause a problem?

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That depends on what we decide to do, and that depends on the tank and aged tap pHs.  I know that sounds silly, but I can't say more without the data.  :)

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That depends on what we decide to do, and that depends on the tank and aged tap pHs.  I know that sounds silly, but I can't say more without the data.  :)

I will test the water tomorrow and let you know, I'm concerned about him developing full blown fin rot, will salt help at all with this? Or should clean water on it's own be enough to heal?

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The fin rot is no big deal compared to an underlying pathology causing the fin rot - it's just a symptom and not a particularly difficult one to heal from as they go. You're in great hands with Sharon and definitely give us as many images, symptoms, tank history, and active water quality data as you can. That helps us narrow down possible causes and treat in a more targeted and effective way :)

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"Full-blown" finrot comes from prolonged poor water quality.  Clean water treats that.  However, tears and spots on the fins happen often even with good water, and usually heal on their own

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You can safely do a 100% water change with the aged water, and a 50% water change with the water right out of the tap.

 

So I would like you to give the sick fish a break from medications and just do very clean water for a few days.  Start with a 100% water change using aged water, then change 50% daily for three days.  Let's see if he feels better.

 

Then do the fluke solve. 

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o

 

You can safely do a 100% water change with the aged water, and a 50% water change with the water right out of the tap.

 

So I would like you to give the sick fish a break from medications and just do very clean water for a few days.  Start with a 100% water change using aged water, then change 50% daily for three days.  Let's see if he feels better.

 

Then do the fluke solve. 

ok great, thankyou, i've got salt up to 0.3% at the moment, remove this completely and just have clean water?

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Yes.  We want to see if maybe the medication or the salt was bothering him.

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