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dkisosondi

Hoover needs some help, possible early sighs of Dropsy

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Hello, it has been awhile since I have needed help from Koko's; but my 9 year old Hoover is in need. Hoover a few day ago got a spot on his upper right just above and behind his gill plate that was red with some yellowing like you see in the picture. I kept an eye on it and it looked like it started to clear up as the redness was gone yesterday. We have an old Fluval 405 that no longer works and he like to lay under it when he is sleeping. Anyway, this morning I noticed we was starting to get raised scales covering most of his body. It has not extended to his rear yet.

 

He normally lives in a 55g tank with 2 corys, one is almost as old as he is. He has been in this tank all is life and there have been no additions for a few years. We belive he is almost blind and we have another fish that is a few years old that used to be in the tank with him, but the smaller fish get his name Spaz for a reason. He almost killed Hover as he would never leave him alone.

 

Anyway, tank is 55g with a Fluval 405. I don't change his water nearly as much as I should. Usually about 80\90% once a month, once I see the nitrates get about 20\30ppm. He is fed ProGold once a day, about 10 pellets total.

 

As soon as we noticed the pineconing, we removed the plants and put the 2 cories in the other tank so that I could salt it. Unfortunately I fear I should have used Epsom salt instead of regular aquarium salt. So to resolve this issue as fast as possible, we went to the pet store and bought a new 20 gallon tank and put 1/2 tsp of Epsom salt and moved him to it. We tried to find some Metronidazole, we found some and purchased it but when we got it home, the tube was empty. We have another store that may have some, but they were closed today.

 

Other notes: We added a heater to the new tank to get them temp up, it is normally 70; I have it set to 78\80. He is still eating, you can see some of his poo in the first picture.

20151221_160706.jpg

 

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Okay I'm not a mod but just going to say that the epsom salt needs to be a 2 tsps for the 20 gallon and mods will be over soon :)

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Okay I'm not a mod but just going to say that the epsom salt needs to be a 2 tsps for the 20 gallon and mods will be over soon :)

 

Thanks but according to the Dropsy page on this site it's 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons. "The correct dose for Epsom salt is 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 US gallons of water." Regular salt would be 2 tsb per 10 gallon for a 1% solution. Like you said though, we will find out soon. There are some pretty smart folks on here.

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Okay I'm not a mod but just going to say that the epsom salt needs to be a 2 tsps for the 20 gallon and mods will be over soon :)

 

Thanks but according to the Dropsy page on this site it's 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons. "The correct dose for Epsom salt is 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 US gallons of water." Regular salt would be 2 tsb per 10 gallon for a 1% solution. Like you said though, we will find out soon. There are some pretty smart folks on here.

 

Actually all the mods I have seen have been recommending 1tsp per 10gal of Epsom in all the pinecone fish topics ive looked at.

Seems weird to have different dosages all over the place.

I think one of them will pop by with your answer quickly though.

I believe they will want you to fill this out on your topic here as well

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/116133-help-request-check-list/

 

 

Edited by Calamity

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Thanks but according to the Dropsy page on this site it's 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons. "The correct dose for Epsom salt is 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 US gallons of water."

 

Would you link to where you read this?  We haven't recommended that for a few years.  We now recommend 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons.

 

Regular salt would be 2 tsb per 10 gallon for a 1% solution. Like you said though, we will find out soon. There are some pretty smart folks on here.

 

Where did you get this?  A 1% salt solution has 10 teaspoons per gallon.  We only use it for a salt dip.  

 

Please fill out this form so we have the information we need to help you.

 

 


Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:
  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
      • * Water temperature?
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
      • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

 

If you can't find metronidazole locally, order some.  You should find API General Cure at any pet store.  This contains metronidazole and you can begin treatment with it immediately.

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Yes, add 2 teaspoons of Epsom to the 20 gallon. You may need to Get some triple sulfa as well with the metro a mod will let you know. And yes, please do fill out the D&D form. For the water parameters include the 55 gallon, 20 gallon, and tap please. :hug

Edited by Mikey

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http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/page/index.html/_/disease-information/dropsy-updated-2012-r330

 

Third paragraph under "Observed Successful Treatments".

 

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 10
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) .25
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.8
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drop
      • * Water temperature? 70
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55G, 9 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 405
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? monthy, 80\90%, depending on nitrates (I know, this is most likely my problem)
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today, previously last month.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 gold fish, 10" nose to tail, 2 small cory cats.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, crushed coral in gravel and filter to help with crappy water.
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? ProGold once a day about 10 pellets total. Most never make to the bottom. I will drop 2 or 3 on the other side for the corys. Hoover usually gets what the corys do not with his constant gravel sifting.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Melafix
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. I have never had to medicate Hover, other fish yes but not him.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Raised scales and excessive slime coat
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No, he is still eating and acting as he usually does.

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If you haven't already done so, please read our guidelines.  You are right, you need to change water more often.  What nitrate level triggers you to change the water?

 

Goldfish find changes in their water stressful.  Since your tap and tank pH differ, Hoover will like small changes twice a week even better than the weekly changes most people do.

 

Hoover looks pretty sick, so let's get him on Metro (General Cure, if you can't get the straight stuff right away) as soon as possible.  You should also be able to find triple sulfa in any pet store.  This, combined with metro, will treat most bacterial infections.

 

Explain 10" nose to tail.  Is that  nose to the base of the tail fin (standard length) or nose to the end of the tail fin (total length).  Hoover has a long tail, so this matters a lot in his actual size.

 

 

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Thanks you. Generally more than 30 or 40 is the trigger, depending on how high it is will determine how much water gets removed. Some water does get added to inbetween changes because of evaporation. I actually broke out the tape measure and Hoover is 11" total, his body is the same length as his tail and looks to be about 5 1\2" (+\- 1\4"). He's a big boy and thankfully he has not got any worse as of today. He is not bottom sitting and is swimming around as he normally does, he wants to be fed. I know I can get Tripple Sulfa, is that added to his water or ingested with his food? I'm gonna make him some fresh pea gell chunks once I get the metros.

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Follow the instructions on the triple sulfa and use this along with General Cure.  We usually remove sick fish to a 10 gallon hospital container for treatment.  We don't want to treat healthy fish in the tank, and also don't want to use more expensive medication than necessary.  In your case, you might want to remove the cories to another container and lower the water level in Hoover's tank to about 20 gallons.

 

We recommend keeping nitrate below 20 ppm.  Hoover has become a senior citizen, and like older people, older fish can suffer from things that didn't bother them and a younger age.  

 

I don't believe in using nitrate to determine when to change water.  The idea behind this says nitrate doesn't break down in the tank, therefore it indicates the level of other tank pollutants that don't break down.  But denitrifying bacteria can break down nitrate, and microbes other than nitrifiers can use ammonia, preventing the nitrifiers from converting it to nitrate.  Outdoor ponds containing plants and/or algae typically have zero or near-zero nitrate even though they may be loaded with unhealthful dissolved organic and inorganic solids.  Goldfish prefer a constant water chemistry and thrive on frequent smaller water changes.

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I will begin doing more frequent wather changes again, I used to do weekly 20% changes, but I don't have as much time as I used to plus with a bad back I have difficulty lugging enough 5g buckets to fill the tank durring colder weather.

 

Hoover is already in a 20g quarantine tank, I went and bought one yesterday for him. I already moved my corys to my second smaller tank with Spaz and Red (my last Cherry Barb). Hopefully they do ok in there, the one cory is extremely old, over 7 years old which is amazingly old for a pepper cory. Hoover is too big for a 10g tank, that is why I got a 20 for him.

 

His main 55g tank will get a through scrubbing\sanatizing today and I will fix his second filter. His main tank has 2 very large Java Fern plants, that is the only plant I have found that he will not turn into a salad buffet.

 

My plan for today is to see if the specialty LSF has Metro and pickup some Triple Sulfa. I they do not have Metro, I will get some general cure and order some Metro. I will do daily water checks to keep an eye on the QT tank since is doesn't have a filtet, it only has a heater and bubbler.

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If you really want to heat the tank, at least lower the temperature to 75F.  

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Will do, I don't normally heat my tanks. Normal room temp is about 65-70 depending on outside temp. I was just going off of the guide from this site. Anyway, I didn't have any luck finding any Metronidazole, they were out so I picked up some General Cure and Tripple Sulfa. I will order some but I am not sure when it will be here because of the holidays.

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Depending on what Sharon thinks, what if the 20 gallon tank was only filled to 10 gallons so it will be less expensive on your part? The 20 gallon is longer, so there should be enough room to swim even with it half filled. We will just have to see though :)

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This one is a 20 tall. It's taller and has more depth than my 20 long, but in all honesty I am not overly concerned with the money saved. I have put him in smaller tanks before and it kinda freaks him out. On the med front, it seems I am having difficulty finding the Metronidazole, it appears the name changed. Can someone confirm that MetroPlex is the same thing?

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Yes. It is.

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Good news about Hoover, he seems to be doing well. most of his pineconeing is gone. He seems a thinner today and most of the yellow slime is falling off, but is starting to coalesce on the bottom and float around the water.

Have a question about treatment. I need to do a partial water change as there is slim floating around is gross and he keeps trying to eat it. According to the medication directions, I am not supposed to do a water change until tomorrow. Another thing that concerns me is I am starting to get some ammonia in the tank and that needs to be gone. I am not really sure what to do.

PS. Hoover says hello. Picture taken yesterday.

20151222_093440.jpg

Edited by dkisosondi

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They tell you not to do a water change to keep you from diluting the medication.  Do a large water change, adding meds to the new water.  (What meds do you currently have in the tank?)

 

When medicating, I  use bucket-to-bucket  100% water changes.   This allows me to keep a large fish in a 10 gallon container.

 

Hoover looks great!  Keep up the good work.

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My plan was to do a 50% (10g) change. Add enough meds and Epsom salt to cover the 10 gallons I remove. With this small of tank I usually use buckets anyway. Currently I have Triple Sulfa, General Cure, Epsom Salt, and some Melafix. I only added Melafix when the tank was filled 3 days ago.

 

Another question, since we are seeing very good improvement on the current treatment, is it still necessary to feed him Metro when it arrives?

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You never want to cut an antibiotic treatment short because the patient feels better.   You want to get all of the bacteria and not have the mildly resistant bugs survive.  I think we usually do 2 weeks of metro.  Let me check with the mod team on this.

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Sorry but I have another question.

 

I am working on sanitizing his tanks and filters. I am going to break everything down and clean with a bleach solution and replace or thoroughly clean his gravel. However I really do not want to kill the good bacteria in the working filter unless it is necessary. What I want to do is rinse the media trays in new but treated water and place them in the repaired filter, everything else will get thrown away. Is it save to not sanitize the media or is there too much risk of reinfection?

Edited by dkisosondi

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I wouldn't  sanitize the tank and filter.   I wouldn't clean with bleach.  You have a well established tank with a microbial system that has optimized for Hoover.  You want to keep that.

 

The rapid improvement says to me that he suffered stress from poor water quality which weakened his immune system.   This made him sensitive to normally harmless bacteria.   I have never seen medications work that fast and note that the first thing you did was clean up his water.  Clean the tank, wash the gravel, rinse the filter media and put it back together.  

 

You don't want to create more stress by damaging your cycle bacteria.

 

You might consider a barebottom tank or one with sand, both of which are cleaner than gravel.

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