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Georgia

Flukes! Need help

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Well, darn. I was hoping I'd never have to post in this disease forum. But I think my one fish is displaying symptoms of flukes. For many consecutive days now, my larger fish, Olive, has been aggressively splashing the surface of the tank's water. So much so, that she gets water almost 2 feet away from the tank and you can hear it from the other end of the house. At first, I thought she was just being her annoying, single tail self, but it's starting to get out of hand. Now I'm seeing some bottom-sitting and missing scales from Olive, which makes me come to the conclusion that she's having a fluke problem.

 

 

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 0
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.6
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API
      • * Water temperature? 58*-60* F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 29, 2 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? once a week, 90%
      • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 2 or 3 days ago, 90%
      • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2, about 4-5 inches standard length
      • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
      • * What do you feed your fish and how often? bloodworms, gel food, pellets
      • * Any new fish added to the tank? nope
      • * Any medications added to the tank? nope
      • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. none
      • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? missing scales
      • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? bottom sitting, excessive splashing, gulping

       

Edited by Georgia

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.....

Okay. What am I missing? Treat for flukes and see if that alleviates symptoms. I'd recommend two or three rounds for maintenance, salt is probably not needed.

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.....

Okay. What am I missing? Treat for flukes and see if that alleviates symptoms. I'd recommend two or three rounds for maintenance, salt is probably not needed.

Sorry, I posted by accident too early. I will elaborate.

 

I have never treated my fish for flukes for as long as I've had them so I feel as though I need to take a stronger course of treatment, especially since they are displaying symptoms. So I feel as though they will display secondary infection symptoms with just prazi. I will order Prazipro tonight along with Seachem Metroplex if you see fit. I have salt on hand. 

 

I just need guidance on my course of treatment, as it's my first time. Also, I will be leaving for Europe on the 22nd for 2 weeks, so I'm hoping I can fit the treatment in before then.

 

I will try to upload a video.

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Disagree completely.  

 

If you believe you have flukes, treat with prazi.  While having flukes can lead to other problems, treating with prazi does not cause other problems.

 

If that doesn't restore health, we can consider other treatments.

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I'm sorry if there was miscommunication, as I typed that too fast.

I didn't mean that the prazi itself will directly cause secondary infection. I meant that, since my fish have never been treated for flukes before, when the flukes are killed off by the prazi, the microscopic holes left behind will be susceptible to infection, there being where the salt or metro comes in. If it were simply a routine maintenance round where we just needed to regulate the population of flukes, and the fish have been treated with prazi many times before, then I would understand the prazi-only route. Thus, i am simply asking if I should take the salt and prazi route or prazi and metro. But you guys are most knowledgable on this.

Thank you.

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If the wounds caused by flukes are going to get infected, that will happen without prazi treatment.   I can't recommend developing resistance to a valuable antibiotic like metronidazole just in case a pinhole might get infected.  

 

I have no problem with using salt, but the US distributor of Prazipro claims that salt reduces the effectiveness of their product.  They give no explanation of why.

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Ok, understandable. So I will do salt and powdered prazi. Can you direct me to a brand of powdered prazi? And should I just follow the protocol on dnalex's thread here? How many rounds should I do? http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/105076-schedules-for-the-treatment-of-flukes-etc-using-praziquantel/

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Or should I just take a chance and do the salt with the prazipro? I can't seem to find any remotely affordable powdered prazi online.

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Yeah, the smallest powered prazi is 25 grams for around $45. There use to be a 10 gram size, but that is no longer available as far as I can tell.

 

As shakaho wrote, the supplier of prazipro doesn't not recommend using any salt with the treatment because, according to them, it would reduce the effectiveness. You can have the metro on hand just in case a secondary infection does occur, though do not use the metro until it is recommended.

 

When I looked at the fish, it looks a bit bloated to me. Does this look this way to you?

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I think she's just a little plump, Lisa. But I'll take another video for you. https://vimeo.com/148570300

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Okay, I have decided that I should just stick with the Hikari PraziPro since the powdered prazi is out of question now. I have composed a rough schedule of treatment based on brief research on other threads.

 

DAY 1: add salt to .1%

DAY 2: add salt to .2%

DAY 3: add salt to .3%

DAY 4: leave salt at .3% for whole day

DAY 5: do 100% WC and re-add salt to .1%

DAY 6: add PraziPro (double or single dose?) with .1% salt still in tank

leave for five days and do 100% water change, end of round.

 

I'm not an expert at this, so if one of the mods feel I need to make a correction, please let me know.

Unfortunately, by the time the PraziPro arrives, I think I'll only be able to finish one round before I have to leave for my trip. I hope it is enough and no infections surface after I leave.

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My :twocents: Feel free to get the salt to .3% sooner - i will add up to it through the course of a day but i think some go straight to it too. 3 days is long when you want to get the prazi treatment rolling.

I will double check (and will erase if I'm wrong! :rofl) but i think the prazi stays in for 4 full days.

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(crap, just realized this now, you can stay at .3% and double dose prazi, BUT this goes against what they have recently advised in not using their product with salt... It is how it's been advised on here for a while so i really don't know what it all means. :rofl Gonna shut it and let someone else take over! :teehee:hug)

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Yeah, that's why I put it to only .1%. :idont But thank you for telling me about the adding salt thing, it will definitely save me time. Maybe treating with just prazi for 2-3 days after the round is done will increase its effectiveness, but I'm not sure if you can do that. :idont

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Any idea when you'll get the Prazipro? Are you also getting metro?

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If you want to add salt, measure out the correct amount for 0.3%, put it in a pantyhose and toss it in. I always do this without a problem. The parasites will have a harder time with it then the fish and that's what we want....

Once the Prazi arrives, I'd remove the salt and add the Prazi as. We don't really know if salt reduces its effectiveness. Prazi should be in the tank for at least 4 days (one dose will last that long unless a WC is done). You should be able to get one round in.

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I just ordered it from eBay. I made sure to find a seller who was close to PA geographically but it says it'll get here before Dec 16. :( Hopefully not on December 16. OK, that sounds like a good plan. I can add salt tonight or tomorrow, so it'll probably be at .3% for about 3-4 days. Is that okay? I also have some Seachem Purigen in my filter, so I'll go ahead and take it out just in case.

 

I'll order some metro too.

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I can send you the rest of my bottle and make sure it gets there quick. I was thinking we were way earlier in the month, haha but still let me know!

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Oh no, Jenna, i don't want to cause any trouble to you. Thank you so much for offering. :heart

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I personally do not believe salt inactivates Prazipro.  We have had people using salt and Prazipro for years and getting relief from fluke symptoms.  One member of the moderating team has looked at flukes under the microscope without finding a difference between  fish treated with straight Prazipro and Prazipro plus salt.  I am also not convinced that salt contributes anything to a prazi treatment.  It would be nice if some research was available.

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It's no problem, keep me on standby just in case :)

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I personally do not believe salt inactivates Prazipro. We have had people using salt and Prazipro for years and getting relief from fluke symptoms. One member of the moderating team has looked at flukes under the microscope without finding a difference between fish treated with straight Prazipro and Prazipro plus salt. I am also not convinced that salt contributes anything to a prazi treatment. It would be nice if some research was available.

sorry to high jack with this question, but how come we only recommended double dosing with .3% salt and prazi pro?

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They got it. If you suspect secondary issues I'd still only use salt until prazi is completed. It's a delicate med and Hikari refused to back up efficacy in combo with any other treatment at all. So less is more with that!

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I personally do not believe salt inactivates Prazipro. We have had people using salt and Prazipro for years and getting relief from fluke symptoms. One member of the moderating team has looked at flukes under the microscope without finding a difference between fish treated with straight Prazipro and Prazipro plus salt. I am also not convinced that salt contributes anything to a prazi treatment. It would be nice if some research was available.

sorry to high jack with this question, but how come we only recommended double dosing with .3% salt and prazi pro?

 

Because when dnalex asked customer service at the US Hikari distributors about salt a few years ago, they said that salt over 0.2% reduced the effectiveness of the product, so he recommended doubling the prazipro concentration with 0.3% salt.  He asked why the product was effective in salt water tanks (3.5% salt) but not at low concentrations and never got an answer. 

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