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Bmitchell486

Quick Help Needed for Ich and Other Infection

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Strips
      • * Water temperature? 82 degrees
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 72 gallons, 5 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 406
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? I change 80% of my water once a week
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday.  When I got home from work and noticed they had ich, I did an 80% change.  Later I did another 50% change -- see more below.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 7 goldfish, ranging from small to medium
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? dechlorinator
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? NLS Goldfish pellets and Repashy Soilent Green gel
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? None added for a year
  • * Any medications added to the tank? There's a half dose of SeaChem ParaGuard in the tank now.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  See below.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? See below.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? See below.

Background: I got 2 new fish in the mail last week.  They're both in QT, in a separate room, using completely different equipment and food.  And I was washing my hands up to my elbows after each time I did anything to the new fish.  I have my original fish tank - 7 fish in there.  No new fish added for a year.

 

Yesterday morning, my fish looked fine and ate well.  I got home from work at around 6:00 and noticed all of my 7 original fish had quite a bit of ich.  I did a salt dip for each one (half a cup of aquarium salt in a gallon of water) and did an 80% water change, really cleaning the gravel. I started raising the temp, and put salt in to start raising the salinity to .1%.  That was all I was planning to do for the ich.

 

Then at around 9-10:00 I started noticing they all started having a white patchy film (looks like a bacterial infection, but I don't have much experience with this).  And I noticed my pearly white scaled fish started looking rusty (doesn't show up in pics, but it's super noticeable in person_.  And their bellies had what looks like maybe blood under their scales.  But by now, all the pet stores are closed.  I had Seachem Paraguard on hand -- says it works for Ich, some bacterial infections and some fungal infections.  The fish looked like they all were going to die over night, so I decided to add it even though it's a harsh medicine.  I dosed it exactly as directed (taking into consideration the actual gallons of water in my tank).  Within an hour, they were all bottom sitting and gulping, so I decided the meds were too harsh on them.  I did another 50% water change (adding back the salt).  This reduced the Paraguard to half a dose.  They seemed to perk up a little after that, but they all look rusty and covered in ich and white film.  There is no flashing, erratic swimming, or anything like that.  They're all just floating around or bottom sitting.  Their fins are ripping at the ends, but are not red.

 

I thought I'd lose several over night, but they all lived.  This is the first chance I've had to put up a post here today.  My husband texted me and said "Only one is still bottom sitting, they're all still alive but they all are still rusty and covered in ich."  Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

I still am having trouble understanding how to post pictures here, I hope this works:

 

Tails.jpg

The above picture is their tails right when I came home and noticed the ich, but before I noticed any other symotoms.

 

 

Otis%201.jpg

This is the chu that shows the "rust" the best in pictures

 

Otis%202.jpg

 

 

Bellies.jpg

Above are their red scaled bellies.  These scales are usually solid white. 

 

Again, I thank you for any help you can provide.  I feel such an overwhelming sense of responsibility, because I know that even though I was careful, I still caused this.  My heart is breaking for them and I want to help them get better.

Edited by Bmitchell486

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** I forgot to mention I raised the salinity this morning to .2% and will raise it to .3% late tonight.

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The treatment for ich is 0.3% salt. in clean water.  Please do a 100% water change, and add salt to 0.3%.   Don't add any other medication.

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The treatment for ich is 0.3% salt. in clean water.  Please do a 100% water change, and add salt to 0.3%.   Don't add any other medication.

 

From the pictures, do you think this is all symptoms from ich? Or do you think there are additional issues going on? 

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Probably from the medication.

 

I added the medication after I noticed the rusty color, white patches, and red bellies.  I hope it doesn't seem like I'm arguing!  I just want to make sure I'm giving the right information so you guys have what you need for a diagnosis.

 

Thank you so much for your help!!!!

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Hope your Goldfish feels better!!!!

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I don't know the cause of the rusty  color.  The patchy appearance probably comes from the slime coat sloughing off from the salt dip.  

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I don't know the cause of the rusty  color.  The patchy appearance probably comes from the slime coat sloughing off from the salt dip.  

 

Okay, thanks for the information.  I got home from work and they really have perked up, but they look the same.  I've completed a 95% water change, (I can't get it all bc I have gravel) and I've just added the salt back, at .2% and the water was already at 82 degrees.  I'll raise the salt to .3% tonight (going from 0 to .3% salinity in less than 24 hours worries me, so I'm planning on waiting to raise it until later tonight). I did another salt dip on the 4 that are the most covered in ich.

 

The ranchu's who have the worst of the rusty color, and the red bellies -- they still have it but they're swimming around now and begging for food. 

 

Thanks again for your help!

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It sounds good.  Look here for good information on  how to use salt.  You can take a goldfish out  of salt-free water and plop them into 0.3% salt water without doing harm.   But don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable.  If you do and get bad results you will feel miserable.

 

I wouldn't worry about the discoloration.  Behavior tells you more.

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It sounds good.  Look here for good information on  how to use salt.  You can take a goldfish out  of salt-free water and plop them into 0.3% salt water without doing harm.   But don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable.  If you do and get bad results you will feel miserable.

 

I wouldn't worry about the discoloration.  Behavior tells you more.

 

Thank you Sharon.  That's actually the post that I was going by with adding salt (since I've never had to add so much before).  

 

I have a new issue now.  All of them are swimming around well, except one of the ryukin's is off balance.  I'm seeing raised scales just on her left side, only about half an inch behind her gills.  The rest of her scales are fine.

 

I've read that aquarium salt can actually increase dropsey by pulling more fluids into their bodies... which is probably happening bc I just raised their tank to .3% salinity tonight.... My predicament is that I can't leave her in that salted tank now, can I?  Won't her dropsey get worse?  My plan now is to put her in her own QT with 1/2 tsp Epsom salt per 10 gallons and keep the temp at 82.  But, she still has ich -- will the epsom salt help with that? Or does she need meds, since she will no longer be in aquarium salt?

 

Please keep in mind, one of the ranchu's I received last week came with dropsey.  He's in epsom salt water and his scales are almost back to normal (although I still don't know if he has an underlying infection, or if it was just the stress from shipping,  I'm wondering if it's an infection, since my ryukin has it now).  

 

The only meds I have are ParaGuard, and Kanaplex.  Kanaplex says it works for dropsey, but I'm not sure if I should use it on her....

 

Any help is very much appreciated.

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I'm so sorry about your ryukin.

Please post top view picture. Best way to do this is to put fish in small container.

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I'm so sorry about your ryukin.

Please post top view picture. Best way to do this is to put fish in small container.

 

Thanks Lisa.

 

I actually didn't get a picture of her last night.  I put her in her own QT tank with epsom salt.  She looked the same this morning - no better or worse.  Probably about 5 rows of scales behind her gills are raised on her left side.

 

 I now have my main tank, and 4 other QT tanks going.  I have enough 20 gallon totes, heaters, and bubblers thankfully, but I just used the last ones with her.  Having so many in QT is tough because it's taking lots of time between water changes to disinfect hoses and buckets, because I don't have 5 hoses and buckets! haha.  I have to change 3 of the QT tanks 100% everyday because I don't have that many extra filters.  Here's the set-up now:

 

Main 72 tank - 5 small-med goldfish, all with ich, and the rusty scales/red bellies.  Only treatment is 82 degree water and .3% salinity.

29 tank - new ranchu -- I still consider him in QT but he's not showing any symptoms of illness.  Only treatment is 82 degree water, with .1% salinity, and prazi.

20 QT - new ranchu -- only symptom is dropsey, not sure of the cause but the epsom has him almost back to normal.  Only treatment right now is epsom salt (1/2 tsp per 10 gallons) and prazi.

20 QT - veiltail out of the main tank -- has ich and was doing the best out of all of them but his tankmates were chewing on his tail quite a bit (it was getting shredded) so I pulled him out.  Only treatment is 82 degree water and .3% salinity.

20 QT - ryukin out of the main tank -- has ich, rusty scales, and the beginnings of dropsey. Only treatment is epsom salt (1/2 tsp per 10 gallons.

 

And, as of last night and this morning, everyone's behavior is very much improved and everyone is swimming around.  They even ate last night.  The ryukin is still having slight buoyancy problems.

 

Hopefully doing 100% water changes on the ryukin everyday will be enough to keep her ich from getting worse.  Do you know if epsom salt helps with ich?

Edited by Bmitchell486

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I have not found any evidence that salt makes dropsy worse, even though we have been guilty of repeating that common statement.  A patch of raised scales does not indicate dropsy.  

 

Dropsy is a symptom, not a disease.  Shipping stress can result in dropsy.  Did you report this condition to the seller and ask for advice?  

 

We recommend 1 tsp of epsom salts per 10 gallons of water.

 

Even though a bacterial infection that led to the bloating can spread to other weak fish, dropsy usually occurs in one fish

 

Untreated ich can be rapidly fatal, and epsom salt won't help it.  I would not recommend ending salt treatment of a fish with ich.

 

I recommend you get some metronidazole in case we need to treat an infection.  Fish stores often carry it, but you may need to get it on line.

 

 

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I have not found any evidence that salt makes dropsy worse, even though we have been guilty of repeating that common statement.  A patch of raised scales does not indicate dropsy.  

 

Dropsy is a symptom, not a disease.  Shipping stress can result in dropsy.  Did you report this condition to the seller and ask for advice?  

 

We recommend 1 tsp of epsom salts per 10 gallons of water.

 

Even though a bacterial infection that led to the bloating can spread to other weak fish, dropsy usually occurs in one fish

 

Untreated ich can be rapidly fatal, and epsom salt won't help it.  I would not recommend ending salt treatment of a fish with ich.

 

I recommend you get some metronidazole in case we need to treat an infection.  Fish stores often carry it, but you may need to get it on line.

 

Oh okay, after reading that aquarium salt made it worse, I assumed it was true. I'm sort of blindly believing the treatment plans, since I have no experience with these illnesses, and the mods here are so knowledgeable.  I understand the raised scales are a symptom, but I didn't want to aggravate it and make it worse.  At this point, since the ranchu came in with it, and now my ruykin has raised scales, I'm not sure if it's a symptom of stress, or if it's a symptom of an internal infection.  Either way, I am using epsom salt to give them relief.

 

For the ranchu I received with dropsey - yes, I let the seller know.  They told me to keep them advised of the situation.  Personally, I trust you guys here, so I was following the epsom salt tip here instead of asking their suggestion.  Any treatment I choose will not void a warranty, since their only warranty is live delivery.  Since I wasn't sure if it was actually an illness causing it, or if it was just stress, I was going to keep the fish in epsom water until the scales looked perfectly fine (last night he looked almost perfect).  Then I plan on removing the epsom salt from the water over a 2 day period.  If the dropsey returns, I assume this means there's an underlying issue (which is why I'd gone ahead and bought the kanaplex).  If the dropsey doesn't return, then I plan on reuniting him with the other ranchu he came with (they were in the same bag, and the same QT tank until 3 days ago, so this should not be an issue).  What do you think about this plan? What would you do in my situation?

 

For the ryukin, I'll return her to the main tank she came from, with the .3% salinity (I'll slowly acclimate her). Is this an okay move?  I'll keep you guys updated if her raised scales get worse.  Even though she only has a few raised scales, last night she seemed a little large, possibly bloated.  She didn't seem too uncomfortable but I think the internal swelling put pressure on her swim bladder and cause the buoyancy issues.

 

API General Cure has metronidazole and my lfs carries it.  It's the only med I can get today (Otherwise I will have to wait 2 days for amazon to ship the Seachem product).  At what point should I add the medication?  This morning, the ich looked no worse and no better than it did 2 nights ago (when all hell broke loose  :madrant ).  But, as I've mentioned before, their behavior has greatly improved.

 

Again, I want to thank you guys for your help with my situation.  I've had several of these guys for 5 years and they mean so much to me.  I know I can be very wordy but I just want to make sure I don't leave out important details.  Thank you for taking the time to analyze my situation and make recommendations for me.  I know you're taking your personal time to do this, free of charge, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

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 Since I wasn't sure if it was actually an illness causing it, or if it was just stress, I was going to keep the fish in epsom water until the scales looked perfectly fine (last night he looked almost perfect).  Then I plan on removing the epsom salt from the water over a 2 day period.  If the dropsey returns, I assume this means there's an underlying issue (which is why I'd gone ahead and bought the kanaplex).  If the dropsey doesn't return, then I plan on reuniting him with the other ranchu he came with (they were in the same bag, and the same QT tank until 3 days ago, so this should not be an issue).  What do you think about this plan? What would you do in my situation?

 

Since the symptoms went away quickly with just epsom, I suspect the symptoms came from stress.  Your plan sounds reasonable.

 

For the ryukin, I'll return her to the main tank she came from, with the .3% salinity (I'll slowly acclimate her). Is this an okay move?  I'll keep you guys updated if her raised scales get worse.  Even though she only has a few raised scales, last night she seemed a little large, possibly bloated.  She didn't seem too uncomfortable but I think the internal swelling put pressure on her swim bladder and cause the buoyancy issues.

 

I would not return a fish that appears sicker than the others to the main tank.  We should first determine if her buoyancy problems come from diet.  This has to be done in isolation.  I recommend you keep her in the Q tank and do 100% daily changes using 0.3% salt.  You can half fill the tank which will make the water changes easier and may easy her buoyancy problems.  Stop feeding her pellets and use only repashy with a twist.  I want you to feed her epsom.  When you make the repashy, add 1 teaspoon of epsom salt per cup of repashy. (You don't have to make a full cup.) Feed this as her exclusive food for a few days and see what happens.  It should purge her gut, possibly eliminate some intestinal parasites, and eliminate intestinal disorders as a cause of the buoyancy problems.  This treatment should be harmless, but be sure to let us know if she displays any new symptoms.

 

API General Cure has metronidazole and my lfs carries it.  It's the only med I can get today (Otherwise I will have to wait 2 days for amazon to ship the Seachem product).  At what point should I add the medication?

 

Order the metro, which is the most useful antibiotic for bacterial infections, and should be in your fishy medicine cabinet.   General Cure makes a handy emergency medicine, but is more expensive and lower concentration.  Unless the fish get worse, we don't want to use medications other than salt until the ich is completely gone.

 

 

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Hello OP - can we have a few very close up, well lit pictures? I'm not convinced we are dealing with ich based on what I see above and what you describe, and clearer pictures would help us discern that better. We don't want to lose time doing an incorrect treatment for the problem at hand, if it is something different or more serious.

Ich should look like a sprinkling of sugar crystals all over your fish, raised little white bumps. White patches, red spots, etc, are not the same thing.

Can you get us some good macro shots of your sickest fish, please?

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 Since I wasn't sure if it was actually an illness causing it, or if it was just stress, I was going to keep the fish in epsom water until the scales looked perfectly fine (last night he looked almost perfect).  Then I plan on removing the epsom salt from the water over a 2 day period.  If the dropsey returns, I assume this means there's an underlying issue (which is why I'd gone ahead and bought the kanaplex).  If the dropsey doesn't return, then I plan on reuniting him with the other ranchu he came with (they were in the same bag, and the same QT tank until 3 days ago, so this should not be an issue).  What do you think about this plan? What would you do in my situation?

 

Since the symptoms went away quickly with just epsom, I suspect the symptoms came from stress.  Your plan sounds reasonable.

 

For the ryukin, I'll return her to the main tank she came from, with the .3% salinity (I'll slowly acclimate her). Is this an okay move?  I'll keep you guys updated if her raised scales get worse.  Even though she only has a few raised scales, last night she seemed a little large, possibly bloated.  She didn't seem too uncomfortable but I think the internal swelling put pressure on her swim bladder and cause the buoyancy issues.

 

I would not return a fish that appears sicker than the others to the main tank.  We should first determine if her buoyancy problems come from diet.  This has to be done in isolation.  I recommend you keep her in the Q tank and do 100% daily changes using 0.3% salt.  You can half fill the tank which will make the water changes easier and may easy her buoyancy problems.  Stop feeding her pellets and use only repashy with a twist.  I want you to feed her epsom.  When you make the repashy, add 1 teaspoon of epsom salt per cup of repashy. (You don't have to make a full cup.) Feed this as her exclusive food for a few days and see what happens.  It should purge her gut, possibly eliminate some intestinal parasites, and eliminate intestinal disorders as a cause of the buoyancy problems.  This treatment should be harmless, but be sure to let us know if she displays any new symptoms.

 

API General Cure has metronidazole and my lfs carries it.  It's the only med I can get today (Otherwise I will have to wait 2 days for amazon to ship the Seachem product).  At what point should I add the medication?

 

Order the metro, which is the most useful antibiotic for bacterial infections, and should be in your fishy medicine cabinet.   General Cure makes a handy emergency medicine, but is more expensive and lower concentration.  Unless the fish get worse, we don't want to use medications other than salt until the ich is completely gone.

 

 

 

The ryukin has never had buoyancy problems. Since they became ill, I've only fed them once and it was repashy and bloodworms.  I doubt it's food related, but to be safe I will continue to feed her the repashy with the epsom salt in it, and will keep her isolated.

 

And okay, I'll order the metro -- to clarify, all I'm seeing on amazon is Peabody's Medicated Flakes - Metronidazole, is that what you're talking about?

 

I will wait to medicate for now.

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Hello OP - can we have a few very close up, well lit pictures? I'm not convinced we are dealing with ich based on what I see above and what you describe, and clearer pictures would help us discern that better. We don't want to lose time doing an incorrect treatment for the problem at hand, if it is something different or more serious.

Ich should look like a sprinkling of sugar crystals all over your fish, raised little white bumps. White patches, red spots, etc, are not the same thing.

Can you get us some good macro shots of your sickest fish, please?

 

Hey! Yes, I will get some macro shots.  I can put them in bowls and hold them sideways under water to get better pictures.  I think that's a good idea bc I'm not seeing any symptom improvement, other than behavioral.

 

It certainly looks like ich to me (I've seen it many times in petstores), but I'd rather have all of your opinions.  The white patches seem to be clearing up a little.  And yes, I've never heard of the rust coloration or red bellies being caused by ich...

 

I am still at work, and will take the pictures as soon as I get home.  Is there any way I can tag both of you in my comment, so you are notified when I post the pictures?

 

And don't worry, I'll use different bowls for each and be sure to disinfect them very well after the use :)  

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Don't worry, we won't miss seeing your pictures, LOL.

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Thanks guys :) I can't tell you enough how thankful I am.  I won't be home from work for probably 3-4 hours, but I will take the pictures right away and post them as soon as I can.

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Okay, here are the pictures from this evening.  My real camera was not cooperating with getting anything close to macro, so I had to do it on my phone.

 

I'm glad to say that today, the rusty look is gone from everyone except one ranchu.  And, I can barely believe it but their red bellies have cleared up today too!!!!  

 

It's easy to see the ich spots, but not quite as easy to see the white patchy film. It's cleared up a little, but still there.  I can see it on all of them, except the camera only captured it on my calico veiltail.

 

First is my pearlscale, Golfball:

 

IMG_7506.jpg

 

IMG_7504.jpg

 

IMG_7497.jpg

 

IMG_7508.jpg

 

Next is my ryukin, Angel:

 

IMG_7520.jpg

 

IMG_7517.jpg

 

IMG_7515.jpg

 

IMG_7513.jpg

 

IMG_7510.jpg

 

Next is my ranchu, Otis. He is the one with a little bit of rust left, but his red belly is all white again!

IMG_7529.jpg

 

IMG_7524.jpg

 

IMG_7526.jpg

 

IMG_7527.jpg

 

IMG_7528.jpg

 

IMG_7543.jpg

 

Next ranchu is Milo -- he looks cleared up from his rust and red belly, and I can barely see ich now:

IMG_7547.jpg

 

IMG_7549.jpg

 

IMG_7550.jpg

 

Next is my ryukin, Mango. He has had a mild case of ich since the beginning, but has been bottom sitting the most:

IMG_7568.jpg

 

IMG_7561.jpg

 

IMG_7571.jpg

 

Next is my calico veiltail, Circus.  He's had the mildest case of ich, and has been swimming the most, but his tail is shredded.  You can see the patchy white film the best on him (his black is usually jet black):

IMG_7582.jpg

 

IMG_7589.jpg

 

Next is my ryukin, Vegas.  She also had milder ich, but has the buoyancy problems now and has a few raised scales on one side:

 

IMG_7609.jpg

 

IMG_7595.jpg

 

IMG_7600.jpg

 

IMG_7602.jpg

 

IMG_7612.jpg

 

IMG_7618.jpg

 

My last sick fish is the new calico ranchu, had him for one week.  He arrived with dropsey.  It progressed to the point where it seemed like every scale on his body was raised, from the back of his head to the base of his tail.  They're still slightly raised:

 

IMG_7626.jpg

 

IMG_7629.jpg

 

IMG_7630.jpg

 

IMG_7631.jpg

 

IMG_7628.jpg

 

Thanks for looking.  I know it's a lot of pictures, but let me know if you want to see more of any particular fish.

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Oh yup, that's ich, all right! We are conferring on the best course of treatment on the back end and will get back to you shortly. Thank you for the great pictures, it made it much easier to tell what was going on.

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Thank you Arctic Mama!  I appreciate it.  Hopefully the treatment won't have to be too harsh, now that the rust/red bellies have almost completely gone away. But I trust your expert opinions more than mine :)

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Update: This sounds strange, but the female ryukin with a few raised scales -- I can kind of see something behind one of her scales.  It almost looks like an oblong white pimple is going to poke out from behind it.  Could this be just several ich parasites grouped together behind her scale?  I tried to get a picture of it, but it doesn't show in a picture.  I can see it bc it's behind one of her matte white/clear scales.

 

She's still swiming around like she's a little dizzy.  I did 100% water change for her today, and only added back aquarium salt at .15% salinity (I'll raise it to .3 tomorrow.. I was too scared to do it faster than that).  And her water temp is 83 degrees right now.

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