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Kayla102968

Another floating pond baby...what causes this?

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I had a baby from last year (one year old) develop a floating issue and she could only float on the top and couldn't swim down at all.  Previously she was just fine, but she was in green water so I hadn't seen her for a while so I don't know exactly how long or even if she looked ill prior to floating.  Now one of the babies from this year is doing the exact same thing.  I know for sure that this is recent since the big pond is clear and 4 days ago I had a photo of her swimming just fine and I keep track of the 5 babies from this year since I was worried about them being eaten in the big pond.  I have never heard of single tail goldfish developing swim bladder problems.  The only other symptom is heavy breathing and white/clear thin poop, probably because she is not eating.

The fish from last year I treated with prazi and metro+ for 14 days and her floating/inability to swim did not improve.  I would like to try and help this baby but again I don't know what to treat for given the symptoms.  Should I do prazi, salt, metro + or maybe even Epsom (in case she is constipated?).  The water temp of the pond is still 65-67 degrees.  I have brought her inside at a temp of 68 right now.

What can cause this sudden floating problem and heavy breathing?  Flukes, parasites?

Here is a quick video from today and a photo from 5 days ago of the same baby (she's at the very top of the photo in the middle).

Any suggestions is appreciated.

The video:

 

Here is the picture of her...she is the fish at the very top of the picture...apart from the group.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/20150930_130944_zps4kputj00.jpg

 

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Can you go ahead and fill out the handy dandy form for us? And am I seeing this correctly - it looks like her mouth/snout is reddened?

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this quickly and she will make a recovery - please be reeeeally thorough with the behavior and treatment history, including when all this began (any symptoms at all prior to the floating four days ago is what I'm wondering about :) ).

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Thanks for your help Taryl :)

Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
* Nitrate level(Tank)...I have to check this one...but based on what it usually is:  40
* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
* Nitrate level(Tap) 0
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.9
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
* Water temperature? 65-67 degrees
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 700 gallons - a year and a half.
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 bucket filters...one is 55 gallons and one is 30 gallons
* How often do you change the water and how much? 10-25% every 2 days
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday 15%
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 31  consisting of 9 adults, 5 babies born in start of May and 17 yearlings (some still very small)
* What kind of water additives or conditioners?  Safe (powdered prime)
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Once a day since I've been having nitrate showing (last week or so); was feeding twice a day.
* Any new fish added to the tank? yearlings and babies were added about a month ago (3 weeks maybe) to the adults from my 2 smaller ponds
* Any medications added to the tank? No; this baby was given one dose of prazi in her baby fry pond with the other fry this summer.  Just preventative.

 

4 days ago I saw her swimming just fine.  Have a photo of it.  My pond is clear so if someone is bottom sitting or floating it is quite easy to see.  She may have been like this for the most 3 days and hiding under a plant.  This little one has a bent tail.  Her sister is much worse shaped and has a bent tail and back of her body and she was swimming strangely this summer and I treated her with prazi and salt and metro for a week and she completely recovered.  She is still doing fine now, but was never to the point of floating at the top.  She was bottom sitting and doing erratic swimming (the sister) that took her sideways and to the top of the tank but then she swam back down.  This baby has never had any swimming problems or health problems at all.

This one is a calico and has a strange coloration.  The top of her head and face is a dark red color naturally and her bottom is yellowish white.  She doesn't appear to have any redness but when I used the flash on the camera I could see some pinkish color under her chin, but that could just be her natural color.  Here is a video and photo without flash:  The video is rotated to the side for some reason...she is actually floating on her side on the top of the water.

http://vid1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/MVI_5035_zpszwh2d93i.mp4

Here is a photo without flash:  I guess when you look really closely you can see some pinkish area under her chin that could be bacterial?:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_5033_zps1liy24nb.jpg

 

She is not eating pellets but I could try blood worms.

Edited by Kayla102968

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She may hav swim bladder constipation can cause it if shes still feeding hav u tried giving her sum green peas

She won't eat her usual pellets...I don't think she wants to eat :(.  She does try flipping herself more now...but only stays upright for a second or 2.  I was wondering if she might be constipated or got something large stuck in her...she is breathing quite heavy.  I suppose gill flukes and / or stress would cause that too.

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It is so sad to watch one of your beloved fish struggle. sadhug.gif

Edited by mysterygirl

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:hi sorry your fish isn't doing well :(

Just wondering when you added the yearlings and babies a month ago, did you treat them with anything before adding them to the group? I hope your fish feel better. :hug

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The redness has me concerned because I have had crazy mouth rot (from something unlikely to be the issue here) and it began with an enflamed snout, clamping, lethargy, etc. By the end my fish's lips were gone. He recovered and has been living a happy life since then, but localized redness is almost always a bacterial infection. If you're sure the redness is her normal color that's great, but to me it looks irritated and I want to be on the safe side :)

In this case, I'm going to recommend a full course of metronidazole and kanamycin in a hospital tank, with the temperature between 74-76 degrees, and 0.1% salt (about 1 teaspoon per gallon). I usually don't toss all the big guns but this doesn't look good and I think going a little more aggressively right now could help her turn a corner and improve instead of decline. I'm also not sure what bacteria is causing the issue, so I would like broad spectrum coverage with both products. Please change your water every two days, when you add the Kanamycin again.

And please bring the temperature in the hospital tank up very slowly. Since your pond is quite a bit lower I don't want to stress her out unnecessarily.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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It is so sad to watch one of your beloved fish struggle. sadhug.gif

It sure is...thank you for your understanding :).

 

:hi sorry your fish isn't doing well :(

Just wondering when you added the yearlings and babies a month ago, did you treat them with anything before adding them to the group? I hope your fish feel better. :hug

Thanks Una.  I did one dose of prazi on the babies about 1 month before adding them as a preventative.  I intended on dosing the 700 gallon pond when everyone was added to it and I even have the aqua prazi but I have been having a lot of troubles with nitrates (40-80) and have been doing larger water changes daily or every 2 days and the aqua prazi is quite expensive and only doses so many gallons.  Maybe I'll have to do a large water change and fast them all for 3 days to get the aqua prazi to work without having to do a water change.

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The redness has me concerned because I have had crazy mouth rot (from something unlikely to be the issue here) and it began with an enflamed snout, clamping, lethargy, etc. By the end my fish's lips were gone. He recovered and has been living a happy life since then, but localized redness is almost always a bacterial infection. If you're sure the redness is her normal color that's great, but to me it looks irritated and I want to be on the safe side :)

In this case, I'm going to recommend a full course of metronidazole and kanamycin in a hospital tank, with the temperature between 74-76 degrees, and 0.1% self (about 1 teaspoon per gallon). I usually don't toss all the big guns but this doesn't look good and I think going a little more aggressively right now could help her turn a corner and improve instead of decline. I'm also not sure what bacteria is causing the issue, so I would like broad spectrum coverage with both products. Please change your water every two days, when you add the Kanamycin again.

And please bring the temperature in the hospital tank up very slowly. Since your pond is quite a bit lower I don't want to stress her out unnecessarily.

She is trying to upright herself and swim a few times...is it helpful to keep her in the 3 gallons she is in (in a 10 gallon tank) to help her with her buoyancy problem or should I fill the tank half way and have her in 5 gallons?  I have metro on hand so I will go ahead and put her in that and the salt.  Tomorrow I will get the kanamycin.  She is already in prazi...I will leave that dose in.  I'm not sure I have a heater small enough for the amount of tank water she is in.  I can put a heat lamp above her during the day though.  The house stays around 70-73 degrees but at night it does cool down a bit.

So you don't think this is just constipation and she just needs some Epsom?  I guess probably not...but it is wishful thinking :).

Thanks for your help Taryl.  I appreciate it and I'll keep you updated.

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Oh gosh poor little guy! That was hard to watch . I wish him/her well

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If you want to try the Epsom and some more time you can, but I really don't think that's the issue, no. That amount of buoyancy and the other symptoms make me think bacterial infection.

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Get one of these .  I kept an adult fish in 3-4 inches of water in one like this for four months.  

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Oh gosh poor little guy! That was hard to watch . I wish him/her well

Thank you for your kindness :).

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If you want to try the Epsom and some more time you can, but I really don't think that's the issue, no. That amount of buoyancy and the other symptoms make me think bacterial infection.

She was looking really poorly this morning...hardly moving her mouth at all and just floating around with the low current. I decided to add some fresh water and changed the amount of water from 3 to 5 gallons. I added back in the prazi I decreased but not the metro or the salt. I know I shouldn't do that but I felt really bad and didn't think she would survive the metro. She is doing better with breathing and not letting herself float off. I will get the kanamycin today and the flatter container Sharon suggested and re-evaluate her when I'm back this afternoon. Is it possible kanamycin is less hard on a five month old? It really is heart wrenching to see her move her eyes around to look at me and I feel helpless :(. She had a long, thin clear/white poop with just a tiny bit of coloration. She is not at all interested in food. She won't even open her mouth for a blood worm.

Thanks for your help...I'll update this afternoon. For the records she has a full dose of prazi in her tank...0.6% salt and a 60% metro dose (I know that is not good), but she really was not doing well on it.

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Please don't underdose the metro or any other antibiotic. Full doses and a full course are needed for efficacy, and a five month old goldfish isn't small or delicate enough that an adjusted dose makes sense. If she is really doing that badly you need to push through with the medication promptly to get in top of the infection or not do it at all and let things progress naturally. But halfway doesn't do much of anything - it just adds the medication load without getting the efficacy you need. If she is struggling with the metro that wouldn't be unusual, I'd expect several days before things would look significantly better. Take it all out if you must, but no half doses.

Both antibiotics at once in full dose (one measure of metro instead of two, though - you don't need two of them!) is my recommendation. It's your choice whether to proceed that way or not. But in my opinion if a fish is that weakened you have little to lose by trying to give it a fighting chance to get on top of whatever is taking it down, and treat more aggressively than a fish just beginning to show symptoms.

Good luck to you.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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And wait a minute! .6% salt! Was that a typo?

If not, I'd be knocking the salt down to .1% or none at all, as that is more likely to be causing the stress symptoms you are seeing than the metro. The metro is antiparasitic, low or no salt to go with that is fine, no need for so much. Whether you continue the prazi is your choice, I'd personally leave it out and focus on antibiotic treatment and then resume the normal salt and prazi rounds when the course is completed. But that strength of solution could be causing your issues right there, in a fish that is already weak.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Yes...sorry...definite typo. It was 0.06%. I'm picking up the kanamycin now and heading back to see how she is.

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I have Kanaplex which is kanamycin.  I will add that now and redose the metro (full dose) at 8 pm tonight.  Thanks Taryl.  I'm going to try feeding her a bloodworm again and see if she is interested at all.

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Whew! Okay, glad that was a typo :). You could even drop the salinity to zero if you'd prefer, I really don't think we need additional slime coat production or mild antiseptic properties and the stress may or may not be an issue.

The full doses of both meds are a bit of a Hail Mary move to try and save the day. They will either get on top of the infection within a few days or we will see further degradation, but I'm hopeful. Fingers crossed and keep us posted as to how your fin baby is doing!

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Fins crossed!!

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I will be adding the metro soon.  She still looks the same and is still not eating...or interested in eating.  This morning she had about a 2.5 inch long white stringy clear poop.

I did notice when taking a photo of her today that her eyes look weird and I don't remember ever seeing this before.  She must have had it genetically but I've just never noticed it...I don't think any illness would cause her eyes to migrate.  One eye is tilted up and the other eye is tilted down.  When I took a side view pic of her floating on top of the water on her side I could easily see it.  How strange.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_5043_zpsxpimcrmf.jpg

 

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_5041_zpsrsalx0pw.jpg

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I wonder if she is swollen and her eyes are affected by that? (See photos above)

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