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Pearlscale looks like it has hickeys on belly


Bmitchell486

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Hey all,
 
I'm hoping someone has seen this before, and knows the condition or cause:
 
My pearlscale (hamanishiki) is 3 years old, and has always been healthy.  The last month or so, he looks like he has hickeys on his belly.  I'm not sure what is causing it, or if it's even a bad thing.  Below is what I do know:
 
- Water parameters are always great - I test regularly
- He is not being bullied
- There are no sharp objects in the tank that are injuring him
- He is not clumsy and running into things

- For a pearlscale, his belly is not super huge

- Eats twice a day - NLS Goldfish pellets once, and Repashy Soilent Green once

- Gets bloodworms 1-2 times a week
 
Other than the appearance of the hickeys, he is acting, swimming, and eating fine.  It doesn't look like random pigmentation either... looks exactly like a hickey.  
 
I'm hoping someone out there knows what it is, and what's causing it.  I've been searching for about a month, and decided it was time to post here.
 
Thanks in advance for your help!  Also, I have several very clear pictures but was unable to add them to this as they are just on my computer (I don't have a URL).  If you know how I can post a pic here, please let me know.

Edited by Bmitchell486
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Hello!

Please fill out the complete treatment form and attach the pictures by uploading them to Photobucket or Flickr and then pasting them here :)

Having the pictures and treatment form in one spot helps us keep our information straight in trying to recommend treatment. Otherwise we forget things, mix up posts, and generally act like human being who have busy lives ;)

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Hey Arctic Mama,

 

So, I've searched this site -- I can't find the treatment form you mentioned.  Can you please let me know where I can find this form?  Then I'll be sure to fill it out and attach it.

 

Also, here is the link to my photobucket site so you can see the pictures:

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bridgettadaballa/library/Golfballs%20Belly?sort=3&page=1

 

This is my first time posting here, so thank you for helping me out!

 

 

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Hey Arctic Mama,

 

So, I've searched this site -- I can't find the treatment form you mentioned.  Can you please let me know where I can find this form?  Then I'll be sure to fill it out and attach it.

 

Also, here is the link to my photobucket site so you can see the pictures:

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bridgettadaballa/library/Golfballs%20Belly?sort=3&page=1

 

This is my first time posting here, so thank you for helping me out!

 

Here is the form for you!

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
      • * Water temperature?
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
      • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

 

Hope your fish feels better soon!

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Thank you guys for your help!

 

So, I wasn't able to go back and edit the post to add this to the top.  Next time, I'll be sure to have this at the top of my post:

 

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 5 ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.5
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Strips
      • * Water temperature? 73 degrees
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 72 gallons, 5 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 406
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? I change 80% of my water once a week
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Wednesday, I changed 80%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 7 goldfish, ranging from small to medium
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Only dechlorinator
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? NLS Goldfish pellets and Repashy Soilent Green gel
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? None added for a year
  • * Any medications added to the tank? None
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  - I do not have salt in the tank, and I treat with Prazi every 6 months
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? None, all fish are healthy except the "hickeys" on the pearlscale.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? None

 

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Hey Arctic Mama,

 

So, I've searched this site -- I can't find the treatment form you mentioned.  Can you please let me know where I can find this form?  Then I'll be sure to fill it out and attach it.

 

Also, here is the link to my photobucket site so you can see the pictures:

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bridgettadaballa/library/Golfballs Belly?sort=3&page=1

 

This is my first time posting here, so thank you for helping me out!

I'm sorry! I thought I copied it into the post like I usually do. That's my fault, not yours!

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Your water is quite acidic for goldfish, but if your tank has been running successfully for five years I wouldn't monkey with it.

Those red spots are petechiae, which are essentially little broken capillaries. Pearlscales can be prone to them, they can result from a physical injury, or can come from a parasite infestation. What is your source for the bloodworms, if I may ask?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Wow, I'm glad to know what it is.  Sounds painful :(

 

The bloodworm brand is San Francisco Bay Brand, Sally's Frozen Bloodworms.

 

So I have 3 questions:

 

Is this a really bad thing for him to have? Or is it usually minor?

 

Once the capillaries have broken, will they ever heal, or will he always have it?

 

What can I do to treat it?

 

I suppose injury is always a possibility, but I don't have anything in the tank that should be injuring him, and like I said earlier he's not a clumsy fish.  If it's parasites, I have Prazi on hand, but I'm not sure if it treats all parasites (I just use it for fluke prevention).

 

Again, your advice is much appreciated!

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In lieu of other symptoms, just watch it. They will fade in time and aren't a big deal at all, but the underlying cause might be. However unless you're seeing new instances or they're spreading I'd assume it was a one off, possibly from breeding behavior with the other tank residents or clumsiness. Goldfish are social animals and pearlscales are delicate, but while the bloodworms could be a possible source of parasites I wouldn't be overly concerned right now.

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Thank you so much Arctic Mama!  I won't worry about it too much now then.  I've heard how delicate pearlscales can be, but I think I've been lucky to have a very healthy one for these 3 years (until possibly now).  When I first noticed the red spots about a month ago, it was very small, and now they have spread over time.  But I'll continue to watch for behavior and will update this thread if anything changes.

 

They're actually almost due for their prazi treatment... might go ahead and do it now, although I'm not sure if prazi helps with all parasites.

Edited by Bmitchell486
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Prazi works great on gill flukes. It's not really useful for other parasites. Go ahead and do the treatment if you're planning on it anyway, and I'd recommend acquiring something like Seachem Paraguard if you're looking for broader spectrum antiparasitics. If the symptoms worsen that is what I'll recommend we use next anyway :)

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Good to know.  I just went ahead and ordered the Seachem Paraguard.  I ordered 2 new Ranchu's from Coast Gem USA and they'll be here next week (in a separate tank, don't worry) haha.  But it might be useful to use on them too.  I've always just treated new fish for flukes with Prazi and salt, but have never tried to treat for any other parasite my goldfish may have.

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You don't want to prophylactically treat with medication, especially antibiotics, because it reduces the efficacy of them when you need them and creates resistant pathogens. That's what happened with aquarium salt, which used to effectively treat a wider range of issues than it does now. Paraguard isn't antibiotic but we still want to save the big guns for the gun fights, so to speak.

We recommend salt and prazi because the salt stimulates the slime coat of the stressed new fish and encourages healing. It is mildly antiseptic, anti fungal, and antiparasitic with easy availability and dosing. The prazi is recommended because flukes are a big issue in goldfish and one of their most common maladies. Flukes don't often kill on their own, but they weaken the fish more and more until they become unable to fight off other pathogens and essentially they become a vector for anything else that wants to opportunistically move in on the fish. Secondary bacterial infections, fin rot, scale loss, wasting, and even other parasites can all gain and foothold when flukes become too numerous to maintain symbiotic balance with our fish. In small numbers they don't hurt anything, and keeping that number down is what prazi does best. Unlike treatments of decades past which often poisoned the fish only slightly less than the flukes, prazi is benign in the aquarium and doesn't harm beneficial bacteria populations. It helps with healthy gill and mouth development in fry, which can be damaged by flukes and the inflammation they cause, and now it is widely available in both powder and liquid formulations for a decent price.

The combination of these two gentle treatments target the basic issues of any incoming fish, even ones showing no symptoms, and can prevent problems down the road. This, along with quarantine, also protects the entire tank population. Time generally reveals any other issues with new arrivals and if needed they can be treated as these things arise because a quarantine offers ample time and w proper environment to deal with these issues. But for routine use we select salt and prazi for specific reasons and it covers 80% of what you're going to see in a normal pet store or breeder specimen in good health with no visible issues.

Sorry for the novel :lol

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Below my signature are links to information on quarantining your new fish. Also below there is a link on our guidelines for healthy goldfish. One of our guidelines is 15-20 gallons per goldfish. Since you are adding new fish, you'll want to consider an additional tank or bigger tank. You've had no problems in 5 years, but as you add more fish and as your fish get bigger stress due to overpopulation can show up in many ways.

 

FYI - API strips for water testing are not as accurate as the API drops.

 

I hope this information helps.

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I am not a moderator or helper but I just wanted to hop in and say, like others have, that Paraguard should only be used for cases when you are sure that you have salt-resistant parasites.

 

As is documented in a very long thread here in D&D, I eventually had to use Paraguard when my fish had been struggling with salt-resistant parasites for months. Endless rounds of Prazi, .3% salt, heat etc. did nothing to alleviate their symptoms (lethargy, uncontrolled swimming, flashing, gulping, and so forth). However, as everyone has said, salt and Prazi do work for most ordinary parasites. While I do think that Paraguard is a good way to use malachite green since it is a chemical that can be hard to dose properly on its own, malachite green is also a serious medication that should not be dosed as if it is gentle or not a big deal. My girls tolerated it fairly well but they did show stress. Moreover, it was the last resort before I contemplated moving to even bigger guns like a malachite green + formalin medication (like Mardel's Quick Cure), copper, or potassium permanganate. 

 

I hope this helps coming from a person who used Paraguard for several weeks in a hospital tank.

Edited by QandD
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You don't want to prophylactically treat with medication, especially antibiotics, because it reduces the efficacy of them when you need them and creates resistant pathogens. That's what happened with aquarium salt, which used to effectively treat a wider range of issues than it does now. Paraguard isn't antibiotic but we still want to save the big guns for the gun fights, so to speak.

We recommend salt and prazi because the salt stimulates the slime coat of the stressed new fish and encourages healing. It is mildly antiseptic, anti fungal, and antiparasitic with easy availability and dosing. The prazi is recommended because flukes are a big issue in goldfish and one of their most common maladies. Flukes don't often kill on their own, but they weaken the fish more and more until they become unable to fight off other pathogens and essentially they become a vector for anything else that wants to opportunistically move in on the fish. Secondary bacterial infections, fin rot, scale loss, wasting, and even other parasites can all gain and foothold when flukes become too numerous to maintain symbiotic balance with our fish. In small numbers they don't hurt anything, and keeping that number down is what prazi does best. Unlike treatments of decades past which often poisoned the fish only slightly less than the flukes, prazi is benign in the aquarium and doesn't harm beneficial bacteria populations. It helps with healthy gill and mouth development in fry, which can be damaged by flukes and the inflammation they cause, and now it is widely available in both powder and liquid formulations for a decent price.

The combination of these two gentle treatments target the basic issues of any incoming fish, even ones showing no symptoms, and can prevent problems down the road. This, along with quarantine, also protects the entire tank population. Time generally reveals any other issues with new arrivals and if needed they can be treated as these things arise because a quarantine offers ample time and w proper environment to deal with these issues. But for routine use we select salt and prazi for specific reasons and it covers 80% of what you're going to see in a normal pet store or breeder specimen in good health with no visible issues.

Sorry for the novel :lol

Thanks for the information, Arctic Mama.  I went ahead and ordered the Seachem Paraguard, but it's not arrived yet. For the reasons you listed above, I actually do not keep salt in my aquarium on a normal basis.  I will try to treat the pearlscale with salt and prazi, taking him from .1% salinity to .3% salinity, and then back down and see how he does.  I knew salt helps build the slime coat, but I didn't realize it could help with parasites like that.  I will try the salt first before I do anything with the Paraguard.

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Below my signature are links to information on quarantining your new fish. Also below there is a link on our guidelines for healthy goldfish. One of our guidelines is 15-20 gallons per goldfish. Since you are adding new fish, you'll want to consider an additional tank or bigger tank. You've had no problems in 5 years, but as you add more fish and as your fish get bigger stress due to overpopulation can show up in many ways.

 

FYI - API strips for water testing are not as accurate as the API drops.

 

I hope this information helps.

Hi LisaC!  Thanks for the information.  You guys are all very helpful here.  Yes, my 72 certainly cannot house any additional goldfish. I have a 29 set up for the 2 incoming fish.  I follow a QT schedule very similar to the one you provided.  

 

I've heard that the API drops are better than the strips, but since I over filter, and maintain my filter on a weekly basis, and change 80% of my water on a weekly basis, the testing always comes up with good parameters and I choose the cheaper test strips.  But I'm sure if I ever have water quality issues in the future, I'll be wishing I had the more accurate drops :)

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I am not a moderator or helper but I just wanted to hop in and say, like others have, that Paraguard should only be used for cases when you are sure that you have salt-resistant parasites.

 

As is documented in a very long thread here in D&D, I eventually had to use Paraguard when my fish had been struggling with salt-resistant parasites for months. Endless rounds of Prazi, .3% salt, heat etc. did nothing to alleviate their symptoms (lethargy, uncontrolled swimming, flashing, gulping, and so forth). However, as everyone has said, salt and Prazi do work for most ordinary parasites. While I do think that Paraguard is a good way to use malachite green since it is a chemical that can be hard to dose properly on its own, malachite green is also a serious medication that should not be dosed as if it is gentle or not a big deal. My girls tolerated it fairly well but they did show stress. Moreover, it was the last resort before I contemplated moving to even bigger guns like a malachite green + formalin medication (like Mardel's Quick Cure), copper, or potassium permanganate. 

 

I hope this helps coming from a person who used Paraguard for several weeks in a hospital tank.

Wow, thanks so much for sharing your story QandD.  I must admit that I was planning on using the Paraguard once I received it, without trying salt/prazi first.  I would have researched how to administer it, but I'd already made up my mind to use it.  I'm glad you all have brought it up that I should use it 2nd, not first.

 

I'll go ahead and salt/prazi him first, and will keep you all updated in this thread of how it is going.  It'll be kind of annoying though, bc I'm getting new fish on Tuesday, so I'll have 2 separate QT tanks going with salt/prazi at the same time. :)  I'm sure it will all go well!

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No, please don't. Like we said, it's not for use without positive indication of parasites that salt alone won't take care of. We aren't blowing smoke about that. The Paraguard is good stuff when you need it, but only when needed :)

Edited by Arctic Mama
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No, please don't. Like we said, it's not for use without positive indication of parasites that salt alone won't take care of. We aren't blowing smoke about that.

I won't.  I'll try the salt first, and if he's not healed from that, I'll consult you guys before trying the Paraguard.

 

Thanks!

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