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My butterfly is NOT eating.. 8 days and counting.. :(


210 Oranda

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Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

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210, will you post a nice, concise, chronological synopsis of the treatment thus far for these butterflies (like you did for the Chus).  That would be extremely helpful.  Reading through this thread is making me  :krazy:

 

Don't add anything after the water change in the morning until we touch base.  We may want to continue the Paraguard, but we may not.  I need to see the treatment history first.

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210, will you post a nice chronological synopsis of the treatment thus far for these butterflies (like you did for the Chus).  That would be extremely helpful.

 

Sep 15: Arrival (2 butterflies & 1 ranchu)

 

Sep 15-18: De-stress days (just WC & double prime)

 

Sep 18: 1st day (black+white) butterfly shows no interest in food

 

Sep 19: 100%WC + 110g salt (@ 0.1% - 29G tank) + prazipro single (1st round)

 

Sep 21: 85%WC + 90g salt + 1.25 tsp prazi (re-dose)

 

Sep 23: 90%WC

 

Sep 25: 90%WC + 98g salt

 

Sep 27: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (1st round)

 

Sep 29: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (2nd round)

 

Oct 1: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (3rd round)

 

Oct 3: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (4th round)

 

Oct 5: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (5th round)

 

Oct 7: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (6th round)

 

Oct 8: paraguard added 1st time

 

Oct 9: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (7th round) + paraguard

 

Oct 11: 100WC + Kana powder (1st round) + prazipro single (2nd round) + paraguard

 

Oct 13: 100WC + prazipro single re-dose + Kana (2nd round)

 

Oct 15: 100wc (remove all prazi) + kana (3rd round)

 

Oct 17: 100WC + prazipro single (3rd round) + kana (4th round)

 

Oct 19: 100wc + prazi single re-dose + Kana (5th)

 

Oct 21: 100WC (remove all prazi) + Kana (6th) + paraguard

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By the way.. I moved the ranchu to the main tank on Oct 10 after finishing the 14 days of metro..

He is super active & loves to eat but Im just a little concerned of what you said..

Meaning that if the butterflies "have something" is possible that the ranchu has it and now it has been transfered to the main tank.. 

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Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

Symptoms as today:

 

Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

 

Butterfly 2 (black, white)

Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

Edited by 210 Oranda
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By the way.. I moved the ranchu to the main tank on Oct 10 after finishing the 14 days of metro..

He is super active & loves to eat but Im just a little concerned of what you said..

Meaning that if the butterflies "have something" is possible that the ranchu has it and now it has been transfered to the main tank.. 

So, was the Paraguard dosed from 10/8-10/11, interrupted and then restarted on 10/21?

 

As for the Ranchu, I wouldn't worry about it.  There's nothing to be done about it now, anyway.  If this is parasitic, it "may" be an issue.  If it is bacterial. it probably won't be a concern.  Just observe for any problems in the main tank. 

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By the way.. I moved the ranchu to the main tank on Oct 10 after finishing the 14 days of metro..

He is super active & loves to eat but Im just a little concerned of what you said..

Meaning that if the butterflies "have something" is possible that the ranchu has it and now it has been transfered to the main tank.. 

So, was the Paraguard dosed from 10/8-10/11, interrupted and then restarted on 10/21?

 

As for the Ranchu, I wouldn't worry about it.  There's nothing to be done about it now, anyway.  If this is parasitic, it "may" be an issue.  If it is bacterial. it probably won't be a concern.  Just observe for any problems in the main tank. 

 

 

Yea.. :doh11: sorry .. I stopped paraguard because I think I saw them getting worse.. and I thought it was too much meds (kana + paraguard + prazi).. "another uneducated guess"

 

And as for the main tank.. I just moved minutes ago one the residents to a bucket.. dropsy

Who knows if the ranchu brought something into the tank.. I just (top view) the new ranchu and his scales are not flush-flat to the body but they're not pineconed either

 

I don't wanna get distracted from the butterflies thread.. sorry..

 

I'll treat dropsy and if needed I'll start another thread

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Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

Symptoms as today:

 

Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

 

Butterfly 2 (black, white)

Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

 

 

 

Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

Symptoms as today:

 

Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

 

Butterfly 2 (black, white)

Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

 

Okay, so as of now, there is no heavy breathing going on, correct?   

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Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

Symptoms as today:

 

Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

 

Butterfly 2 (black, white)

Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

 

 

 

Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

Symptoms as today:

 

Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

 

Butterfly 2 (black, white)

Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

 

Okay, so as of now, there is no heavy breathing going on, correct?   

 

 

Not normal but not heavy either.. just faster than normal (does it make sense ?)

 

Let me rephrase what I said above..

 

"C" shape butterfly, normal while in C shape

 

The other butterfly, not heavy but not normal either. A little faster than normal

Edited by 210 Oranda
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Okay, thank you for the treatment synopsis.  What I would do is give them a day off of all meds tomorrow.  Do your morning water change as planned, feed them and then turn off the tank lights and try to leave them alone.  You may even want to cover the tank with a towel to give them comfort.  Let me know how they are after the water change and feeding and I'll get back to you about the plans for the evening.  

 

The Paraguard is not an antibiotic per se, so it's not the end of the world that you interrupted the treatment.  We may very well want to continue with the Paraguard (or start 0.3% salt instead) based on how tomorrow goes, but I would really like to see how they do with a brief respite from meds and attention.  

 

I would also recommend that you get some Aqua Prazi powder for quarantine and mixed treatments and save the Prazipro for fluke maintenance rounds (without salt) in the main tank.  The powdered Prazi can be used with salt at any concentration and also with Malachite Green which probably means it's fine to use with Paraguard.  That is something we would want to confirm with Seachem and Aqua Meds, though.

Edited by Jared
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Okay, thank you for the treatment synopsis.  What I would do is give them a day off of all meds tomorrow.  Do your morning water change as planned, feed them and then turn off the tank lights and try to leave them alone.  You may even want to cover the tank with a towel to give them comfort.  Let me know how they are after the water change and feeding and I'll get back to you about the plans for evening.  

 

The Paraguard is not an antibiotic per se, so it's not the end of the world that you interrupted the treatment.  We may very well want to continue with the Paraguard (or start 0.3% salt instead) based on how tomorrow goes, but I would really like to see how they do with some respite from meds and attention.  

 

I would also recommend that you get some Aqua Prazi powder for quarantine and mixed treatments and save the Prazipro for fluke maintenance rounds (without salt) in the main tank.  The powdered Prazi can be used with salt at any concentration and also with Malachite Green.

Sounds like a plan.. I'll shoot a short video tomorrow night to see their behavior

Where do I get the powder ?? Amazon,Ebay ??

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/AQUA-PRAZI-TREATMENT-FOR-FLUKE-PARASITES-25-GRAMS-/200464807307?hash=item2eaca2358b:m:m_DV3xZA83yil-e8BBrjEug

 

http://www.amazon.com/Prazi-Treatment-Fluke-Parasite-grams/dp/B00RPTHOFI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445573119&sr=8-1&keywords=aqua+prazi

 

http://www.webbsonline.com/Item/Aqua-Prazi-78037

 

It's expensive, but it goes much further than a bottle of Prazipro.

 

1/16 Teaspoon treats 10 gallons

1/8 Teaspoon treats 20 gallons

1/4 Teaspoon treats 40 gallons

Edited by Jared
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Just do the paraguard unless Jared instructs you otherwise. I'm punting to him on this ;)

 

 

Don't force feed the Butterfly today.  Just offer some food after the water change and leave it in the tank.  Today's goal is to de-stress.

 

Here they are after 50WC with non-soft water.. I'll do another 50WC this evening

They do go completely motionless & C shape a few minutes after feeding

 

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That's extremely bizarre. As with previous issues I'd really wonder about your water quality. Given the price of your stock, could you just bite the bullet and get a professional analysis of your taps done so you know exactly what you're working with in terms of phosphorus, arsenic, iron content, dissolved calcium, etc etc? Are there any plastics, resins, or glues in your aquarium filters that aren't food safe

These are things really worth tracing just to eliminate them as variables. With fish from so many different sources having problems at various times it could just be really bad luck. Or not. Know what I mean?

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That's extremely bizarre. As with previous issues I'd really wonder about your water quality. Given the price of your stock, could you just bite the bullet and get a professional analysis of your taps done so you know exactly what you're working with in terms of phosphorus, arsenic, iron content, dissolved calcium, etc etc? Are there any plastics, resins, or glues in your aquarium filters that aren't food safe

These are things really worth tracing just to eliminate them as variables. With fish from so many different sources having problems at various times it could just be really bad luck. Or not. Know what I mean?

It is crazy, isn't !?.. they look "kinda" normal for a second then back to "trashed"..

Im supposed to dig a little in regards my water softener system

I know is not an RO system but Im not sure what system it is and what does it do to the water (chemically)

If I don't find answers from manufacturer or City sources I'll be hiring someone to do an analysis

 

What exactly am I asking to the analysis people in regards the water ??

_______________________________________

 

In regards "luck".. I don't know..

I have nine fish to be in what I see as "thriving" mode.. but who knows, maybe they're not

 

One thing I remember that Ken (dandy) told me is that this butterflies usually get lethargic at first then either get better or (they) never get better..

They're used to ponds and direct sunlight so I don't know if I ended up with "those drama fish" that will never be able to acclimate to a new enviroment

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Well.. GE (water softener manufacturer) couldn't tell me much..

They just said what "butterfly" has already said..

The softener only removes Ca & Mg and replaces with Na.. (supposedly) it doesn't do anything else to any other element

Screenshot%2031_zpsg1d9ekcm.png

 

 

Here's the report of the local water.. I don't understand it but maybe some of you do and can tell if some of the elements are (or could be) bad for GF

 

Screenshot%2032_zpsltaav0fm.png

 

Screenshot%2033_zpscosef2ol.png

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Last video looks like they are doing better...?  At least they're moving and both eating.

 

Here are some more links I have found to information on calcium and water hardness.

 

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/HARDNESS.htm  (This perhaps the most "legit".  Not a research paper but at least written by PhD aquaculture specialist.)

 

 

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

 

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

 

Perhaps those butterflies are just more sensitive to water conditions that other goldfish, which might jive with what Ken/DO was telling you.  I saw a recent video from Solid Gold where she mentioned the same about one of her new butterflies.

 

As I said before, I have kept fish in my "softened" but un-salted water too without a problem for long periods of time.  It was only this one fish who was initially fine in the softened water who got sick shortly after I added salt to the water.  The story just seemed very similar to yours and I was trying to help.  Once I changed the water out with hard water (but still with salt) he's been fine.

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Last video looks like they are doing better...?  At least they're moving and both eating.

 

Here are some more links I have found to information on calcium and water hardness.

 

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/HARDNESS.htm  (This perhaps the most "legit".  Not a research paper but at least written by PhD aquaculture specialist.)

 

 

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

 

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

 

Perhaps those butterflies are just more sensitive to water conditions that other goldfish, which might jive with what Ken/DO was telling you.  I saw a recent video from Solid Gold where she mentioned the same about one of her new butterflies.

 

As I said before, I have kept fish in my "softened" but un-salted water too without a problem for long periods of time.  It was only this one fish who was initially fine in the softened water who got sick shortly after I added salt to the water.  The story just seemed very similar to yours and I was trying to help.  Once I changed the water out with hard water (but still with salt) he's been fine.

Very interesting links, thank you..

 

I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

 

To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

(I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

 

It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

Edited by 210 Oranda
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Okay, I am actually encouraged by the video.  They are both eating the bloodworms, so let's just stick with bloodworms once a day (and nothing else) for a few days.  Go ahead and do the second water change (non-softened) tonight as planned and don't add any meds.  Keep the lights off and give them as much privacy as possible. Touch base with me in the morning and we will go from there.  

 

I don't know if this water softener is really an issue, but with the history of your fish I think it's worth eliminating any possible culprits until we get the water test results.

Edited by Jared
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Very interesting links, thank you..

 

I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

 

To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

(I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

 

It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

 

 

Hi again.  

 

I have kind of a similar situation in that I can use my outside spigot except in winter.  I am going to try using Seachem Replenish for my winter water changes with my softened tap water (fortunately it is not that expensive as far as aquarium supplements go!).  I probably won't bring it all the way up to 11 with Replenish, maybe around and 8 unless I see issues (and I'll be keeping a Wondershell in there too).  I have a gH kit from API that I use to measure the hardness.  Just throwing that out there as it may be a solution for you too.

 

Seachem also has a product called Equillibrium which is a gH booster without added sodium (for plant growers).  I don't think the extra sodium in Replenish is going to matter as much as just keeping up the Ca and Mg concentrations.  There are other gH boosters mostly marketed for Cichlids and plant growers, so you may find something even cheaper out there too.

 

Again, I haven't tried any of this yet, it is just the plan I have going as I head into winter.  I hope everything keeps looking up for your fish!  They are so beautiful.  I love DO fish and look forward to their auction each week!

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Very interesting links, thank you..

 

I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

 

To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

(I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

 

It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

 

 

Hi again.  

 

I have kind of a similar situation in that I can use my outside spigot except in winter.  I am going to try using Seachem Replenish for my winter water changes with my softened tap water (fortunately it is not that expensive as far as aquarium supplements go!).  I probably won't bring it all the way up to 11 with Replenish, maybe around and 8 unless I see issues (and I'll be keeping a Wondershell in there too).  I have a gH kit from API that I use to measure the hardness.  Just throwing that out there as it may be a solution for you too.

 

Seachem also has a product called Equillibrium which is a gH booster without added sodium (for plant growers).  I don't think the extra sodium in Replenish is going to matter as much as just keeping up the Ca and Mg concentrations.  There are other gH boosters mostly marketed for Cichlids and plant growers, so you may find something even cheaper out there too.

 

Again, I haven't tried any of this yet, it is just the plan I have going as I head into winter.  I hope everything keeps looking up for your fish!  They are so beautiful.  I love DO fish and look forward to their auction each week!

 

How about just to "by pass" the water from the softener..?? :idont

(I have the valve to do that, do you?)

 

In my case I will have to run the water for several minutes to allow all "soft" water to exit the pipes.. I'm not willing to waste so much water right now..

I'll use a hose from the outside thru the window now, I guess.. then when it gets cold.. I'll bypass it

Edited by 210 Oranda
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Okay, I am actually encouraged by the video.  They are both eating the bloodworms, so let's just stick with bloodworms once a day (and nothing else) for a few days.  Go ahead and do the second water change (non-softened) tonight as planned and don't add any meds.  Keep the lights off and give them as much privacy as possible. Touch base with me in the morning and we will go from there.  

 

I don't know if this water softener is really an issue, but with the history of your fish I think it's worth eliminating any possible culprits until we get the water test results.

What is "exactly" what Im looking for in "that water" test.. ?

I never done one so I don't know what to look for when I call an analysist

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Very interesting links, thank you..

 

I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

 

To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

(I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

 

It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

 

 

Hi again.  

 

I have kind of a similar situation in that I can use my outside spigot except in winter.  I am going to try using Seachem Replenish for my winter water changes with my softened tap water (fortunately it is not that expensive as far as aquarium supplements go!).  I probably won't bring it all the way up to 11 with Replenish, maybe around and 8 unless I see issues (and I'll be keeping a Wondershell in there too).  I have a gH kit from API that I use to measure the hardness.  Just throwing that out there as it may be a solution for you too.

 

Seachem also has a product called Equillibrium which is a gH booster without added sodium (for plant growers).  I don't think the extra sodium in Replenish is going to matter as much as just keeping up the Ca and Mg concentrations.  There are other gH boosters mostly marketed for Cichlids and plant growers, so you may find something even cheaper out there too.

 

Again, I haven't tried any of this yet, it is just the plan I have going as I head into winter.  I hope everything keeps looking up for your fish!  They are so beautiful.  I love DO fish and look forward to their auction each week!

 

How about just to "by pass" the water from the softener..?? :idont

(I have the valve to do that, do you?)

 

In my case I will have to run the water for several minutes to allow all "soft" water to exit the pipes.. I'm not willing to waste so much water right now..

I'll use a hose from the outside thru the window now, I guess.. then when it gets cold.. I'll bypass it

 

 

Never mind to the "by pass" during winter..

That will bring Ca & Ma to my piping and eventually cause me problem$$

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