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My butterfly is NOT eating.. 8 days and counting.. :(


210 Oranda

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Over a month in QT and the behavior is still the same..

One butterfly is being syringe fed and is still spitting out the food

 

The butterfly you see below loves to eat but (in the last couple of days) she stays in a C shape most of the time

I don't know if she's dying.. she search for food at times but goes back to C shape after eating

 

They have had 14 days of metro (alone), 12 days of kana (alone), 2 rounds of prazi (while w/ kana) and paraguard for 4 days

 

What should I do ??? :( :(

 

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Okay, we have conferred on the back end and aren't clear on the relationship between those two fish. Were they from the same seller and in quarantine together?

It's not looking good for the original butterfly. It may be harsh, but as a last ditch attempt at dealing with what I suspect parasitic we need to do two weeks of paraguard with a double dose of prazi and .1% salt. Change the water every three days. Please check and recheck your husbandry in the tank th the c shaped butterfly, that the water parameters are stable and you're not over feeding.

If this doesn't work, assume the imports have some sort of aggressive infection we cannot treat without prescription antibiotics and a vet's care. In that case clean, warm water and time are the best you can do, unless you'd consider euthanizing them.

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Okay, we have conferred on the back end and aren't clear on the relationship between those two fish. Were they from the same seller and in quarantine together?

It's not looking good for the original butterfly. It may be harsh, but as a last ditch attempt at dealing with what I suspect parasitic we need to do two weeks of paraguard with a double dose of prazi and .1% salt. Change the water every three days. Please check and recheck your husbandry in the tank th the c shaped butterfly, that the water parameters are stable and you're not over feeding.

If this doesn't work, assume the imports have some sort of aggressive infection we cannot treat without prescription antibiotics and a vet's care. In that case clean, warm water and time are the best you can do, unless you'd consider euthanizing them.

Both butterflies came form DO at same time along with a ranchu..

Ranchu is doing great, already in main tank

 

The butterfly in C shape was doing good during the metro & kana treatments.. she was somehow lethargic but I thought she was being sympathetic to the "non-eating" butterfly.. she got to C shape after I added prazi for the second time

 

I will continue the paraguard along with the prazi + salt as suggested and I'll also use outside water (non soften) "just in case"

 

I was about to turn the lights off and I noticed the fin rot on the (original) butterfly.. Should I "triple sufla" ??? (or isn't relevant right now)

 

Edited by 210 Oranda
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Just curious, what parasite is suspected?  Since DO treats for flukes and you have also treated with two rounds of Prazi, I'm skeptical that this is the problem.  The issue seems to be internal as both fish look good on the outside (and have from the start).  I would also check with Hikari to make sure the Prazipro is compatible with the Paraguard and isn't diminished by the combination.

Edited by Jared
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Butterfly's posts may be worth investigating.  Here is at least one article (under Commercial Water Softeners) that supports this theory.  I don't have the time to research it further...but maybe you should?  

 

 http://animals.mom.me/effects-soft-water-goldfish-7468.html

Edited by Jared
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Just curious, what parasite is suspected? Since DO treats for flukes and you have also treated with two rounds of Prazi, I'm skeptical that this is the problem. The issue seems to be internal as both fish look good on the outside (and have from the start). I would also check with Hikari to make sure the Prazipro is compatible with the Paraguard and isn't diminished by the combination.

From what I can tell, Paraguard can be used in conjunction with both prazi (doubled) and metro/kana, but that's a big stress load. The lack of eating that didn't respond to either antibiotic is very unusual. My first thought with the wasting and refusal to eat was something like hexamita but the metro should have helped with that. Some type of parasitic worm would be my next guess over a month (?) of food refusal. This is process of elimination and the prazi is a response to the incomplete quarantine, as both fish only completed the one round.

If it were my fish is just euthanize and be done with it, but I understand how valuable the stock is and why you'd want to try and save them. Something that doesn't respond to qt and several rounds of treatment isn't good, though :(

Ignore the fin rot, that's a symptom, not a cause. The treatment and stress of not eating would be more than enough to cause a mild case and no additional treatment beyond the salt need be used.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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So, to be clear...has Hikari said that Prazipro (specifically) can be used with Paraguard?  The reason I ask is because they have expressly said not to use it with salt above 0.1% because it interferes somehow with their suspension formula.  While powdered Prazi can be used very effectively with plain Malachite Green, I'm wondering if the Hikari liquid suspension plus the various polymers in the Paraguard may interfere with the efficacy of the Praziquantel?  I think it's worth checking with Hikari and not relying on word of mouth.  

 

What kind of Metro was used and for how long consistently?

Edited by Jared
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Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

Yes, I agree.  Prazipro is a fussy substance.  I use Aqua Prazi for quarantine and mixed treatments and just use Prazipro for maintenance rounds with no salt.

 

What was the dosage of the Metro.  I use the upper 200 mg per 10 gallons as the water borne isn't as readily absorbed as the food.  Food is better.  I think NLS Hex Shield is our best new option if the fish is eating. I know this guy wasn't eating.

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I'm not positive which dose he used - I always mean the 2 measure dose unless I specify otherwise, but there was a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure we clarified that. 210, how many measures of metro were you dosing?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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If the fish survive today, I'm wondering if a drug holiday might be a good next step after this long onslaught of drugs?  At least a day of just clean water (maybe not softened), no salt, no meds, no food and no lights to let us and the fish regroup?  Opinions :idont

Edited by Jared
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Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

Yes, I agree.  Prazipro is a fussy substance.  I use Aqua Prazi for quarantine and mixed treatments and just use Prazipro for maintenance rounds with no salt.

 

What was the dosage of the Metro.  I use the upper 200 mg per 10 gallons as the water borne isn't as readily absorbed as the food.  Food is better.  I think NLS Hex Shield is our best new option if the fish is eating. I know this guy wasn't eating.

 

 

 

I'm not positive which dose he used - I always mean the 2 measure dose unless I specify otherwise, but there was a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure we clarified that. 210, how many measures of metro were you dosing?

 

I used the metroplex as directed.. 1 level scoop per 10 gallon of water,  from September 27 to October 10.. (w/ .1% salt)

Then from October 11 to October 22 Kana along with prazipro (single dose, no salt)

 

On the bright side.. I've seen the (original) butterfly to look for food at times..

she still spit out the gel while syringe fed but I have seen her getting some brine shrimp when I toss them in for the "other" butterfly

However.. that "hungry/looking for food" behavior is inconsistent.. but I think it is something positive

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Butterfly's posts may be worth investigating.  Here is at least one article (under Commercial Water Softeners) that supports this theory.  I don't have the time to research it further...but maybe you should?  

 

 http://animals.mom.me/effects-soft-water-goldfish-7468.html

Thanks for the link.. I will definitely use (non soft) in tomorrow's WC

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Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

Yes, I agree.  Prazipro is a fussy substance.  I use Aqua Prazi for quarantine and mixed treatments and just use Prazipro for maintenance rounds with no salt.

 

What was the dosage of the Metro.  I use the upper 200 mg per 10 gallons as the water borne isn't as readily absorbed as the food.  Food is better.  I think NLS Hex Shield is our best new option if the fish is eating. I know this guy wasn't eating.

 

 

 

I'm not positive which dose he used - I always mean the 2 measure dose unless I specify otherwise, but there was a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure we clarified that. 210, how many measures of metro were you dosing?

 

I used the metroplex as directed.. 1 level scoop per 10 gallon of water,  from September 27 to October 10.. (w/ .1% salt)

Then from October 11 to October 22 Kana along with prazipro (single dose, no salt)

 

On the bright side.. I've seen the (original) butterfly to look for food at times..

she still spit out the gel while syringe fed but I have seen her getting some brine shrimp when I toss them in for the "other" butterfly

However.. that "hungry/looking for food" behavior is inconsistent.. but I think it is something positive

 

Okay, they've changed the directions and formula slightly.  They use to give you the option of 1-2 scoops per 10 gallons.  I still use 2 scoops per 10 gallons as water borne Metronidazole isn't absorbed as well as the Metro food.  I also general combine Metroplex with a gram negative antibiotic such as Kanaplex simultaneously because Metro is a very specific medication for a couple of parasites and gram positive bacteria and doesn't provide a broad spectrum treatment.  Since most parasites will survive Metronidazole and most bacterial infections are gram negative, it is not usually effective on it's own.  It is, however, effective when combined with the appropriate (complimentary) meds.  

 

What meds are in the water currently?

Edited by Jared
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Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

Yes, I agree.  Prazipro is a fussy substance.  I use Aqua Prazi for quarantine and mixed treatments and just use Prazipro for maintenance rounds with no salt.

 

What was the dosage of the Metro.  I use the upper 200 mg per 10 gallons as the water borne isn't as readily absorbed as the food.  Food is better.  I think NLS Hex Shield is our best new option if the fish is eating. I know this guy wasn't eating.

 

 

 

I'm not positive which dose he used - I always mean the 2 measure dose unless I specify otherwise, but there was a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure we clarified that. 210, how many measures of metro were you dosing?

 

I used the metroplex as directed.. 1 level scoop per 10 gallon of water,  from September 27 to October 10.. (w/ .1% salt)

Then from October 11 to October 22 Kana along with prazipro (single dose, no salt)

 

On the bright side.. I've seen the (original) butterfly to look for food at times..

she still spit out the gel while syringe fed but I have seen her getting some brine shrimp when I toss them in for the "other" butterfly

However.. that "hungry/looking for food" behavior is inconsistent.. but I think it is something positive

 

Okay, they've changed the directions and formula slightly.  They use to give you the option of 1-2 scoops per 10 gallons.  I still use 2 scoops per 10 gallons as water borne Metronidazole isn't absorbed as well as the Metro food.  I also general combine Metroplex with a gram negative antibiotic such as Kanaplex simultaneously because Metro is a very specific medication for a couple of parasites and gram positive bacteria and doesn't provide a broad spectrum treatment.  Since most parasites will survive Metronidazole and most bacterial infections are gram negative, it is not usually effective on it's own.  It is, however, effective when combined with the appropriate (complimentary) meds.  

 

What meds are in the water currently?

 

 

Yesterday was the last (6th) dose of kana.. so today is their 12th day

they also have the paraguard (yesterday & today), but nothing else (yet)..

 

I know that I should have used the kana + metro as combo but things started w/ metro just as "preventive-antiprotoazan" method

Edited by 210 Oranda
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Even when treating for protozoans, it's better to use Kana along with the Metro as secondary internal bacterial infections often accompany internal parasitic infestations.  The Kanaplex is well absorbed and will handle this better than salt which only helps infections on the external surface of the fish.

Edited by Jared
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We are actually discussing the use of kanaplex and whether or not it is effective or too harsh right now in figuring out some more uniform protocols. I personally like it and have had success with it in conjunction with other treatments, but it's up in the air right now. It may be worth emailing your opinion to Helen, Lisa, or Koko as we are thinking on this, we all value your input :)

210, I'm happy to let Jared take a stab at this. If you're not comfortable with my advice please follow his and I will keep an eye on this thread and chip in as needed.

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Oh no, I'm so sorry. I hope something works soon.  I don't know if you're doing partial or complete water changes, but thinking about how it is recommended to slowly acclimate fish to salt, maybe only change out half the water with the unsoftened/hard water at first if you do so?  Just a thought.  Good luck.

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Just got off the phone with Hikari - they are recommending use of prazi pro by itself, not even in conjunction with salt, because of potential decreases in efficacy. He said they hadn't tested it against a formula like paraguard and because everyone was changing their formulations so quickly they wouldn't try and stay on top of that, so their blanket advice is not to combine it with anything.

It's unfortunate they didn't have some data, but there you have it. So go ahead and separate the two meds to insure the efficacy of the fluke treatment. The paraguard is likely more important at this point anyway.

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We are actually discussing the use of kanaplex and whether or not it is effective or too harsh right now in figuring out some more uniform protocols. I personally like it and have had success with it in conjunction with other treatments, but it's up in the air right now. It may be worth emailing your opinion to Helen, Lisa, or Koko as we are thinking on this, we all value your input :)

210, I'm happy to let Jared take a stab at this. If you're not comfortable with my advice please follow his and I will keep an eye on this thread and chip in as needed.

I don't think it is too harsh when it is used properly.  I, too have had much success with it with my own fish and when helping OPs treat their fish.

 

Let's keep this dialogue going.  Hopefully we can all figure this out together :) 

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Just got off the phone with Hikari - they are recommending use of prazi pro by itself, not even in conjunction with salt, because of potential decreases in efficacy. He said they hadn't tested it against a formula like paraguard and because everyone was changing their formulations so quickly they wouldn't try and stay on top of that, so their blanket advice is not to combine it with anything.

It's unfortunate they didn't have some data, but there you have it. So go ahead and separate the two meds to insure the efficacy of the fluke treatment. The paraguard is likely more important at this point anyway.

I had a feeling they would say that.  Thank you for checking.

Edited by Jared
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I was really disappointed they hadn't done any testing beyond the preliminary. With the cost of the product you think they'd put more into r&d. Oh well!

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Okay, we have conferred on the back end and aren't clear on the relationship between those two fish. Were they from the same seller and in quarantine together?

It's not looking good for the original butterfly. It may be harsh, but as a last ditch attempt at dealing with what I suspect parasitic we need to do two weeks of paraguard with a double dose of prazi and .1% salt. Change the water every three days. Please check and recheck your husbandry in the tank th the c shaped butterfly, that the water parameters are stable and you're not over feeding.

If this doesn't work, assume the imports have some sort of aggressive infection we cannot treat without prescription antibiotics and a vet's care. In that case clean, warm water and time are the best you can do, unless you'd consider euthanizing them.

Taryl.. Since this (above) reply does not longer apply because of what Hikari has told you..

What do you suggest ??.. I'm doing 50%wc in the morning w/ non-soft water then another 50% in the evening (w/ no-soft)

 

What about meds, if any ??

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