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My butterfly is NOT eating.. 8 days and counting.. :(


210 Oranda

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I think it would be safer to make a batch of repashy with too much water and feed that via a syringe. The gel will be inactivated so will lessen the chance of clogging the intestines.

Chelsea.. thank you for the input but she is refusing to keep the syringed food inside..

It was a fight just to make her stay still in my hand and even though she did swallow some of the (repashy) paste

she did spit it out after "chewing" it for a few seconds.

 

I don't know what to do or say anymore.. we are on the 10th day of metro powder but no change

She has to be having some kind of intake to be able to be alive today (today is the 17th day w/o food)

 

If there's anything else you guys can think of please let me know.. who knows how much longer she will last :(

 

Despite spitting out most of the food, she likely is getting some of it in. The repashy paste is messy so it leaks out when feeding happens, and it looks like she's not getting any when she actually is getting some. I remember when I had to syringe-feed. It was always a messy affair! 

 

Are you waiting until she has settled before you try feeding? It's not about 'making' her stay still as it is about allowing her to get comfortable. Fish who are stressed won't eat just as much as fish who are sick won't eat. Also, how long/often have you been doing the syringe feeding? 

 

I have only tried this twice because is extremely messy.. and yes, I've waited for her to (somewhat) calm before I feed. however, she does NOT get "comfortable".. she breathes really fast when in my hand, so I know she doesn't like it..

 

Now..

why did you say that is "safer" to syringe feed that to add the paste to a small container so she can be forced to intake the food ???? (thx!)

 

I don't say it's safer, but I do say it is more effective.If she won't eat, she is not going to eat from a container. She has to be forced to eat in order to get her to intake nutrition.

Yes, she is going to be slightly stressed out by the whole procedure, hence the heavy breathing. However, if you do it more often, she will get used to it and it will become less stressful. It's like getting a young child to take pills. They need them, and will get used to them over time, but they do not like them.

Since she has been without food for a week longer than is recommended, it's important that we get food into her because her body will otherwise start to eat itself just like any other starved creature. This means that we really need to be syringe feeding her. 

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Has the Paraguard arrived?

It should be here tomorrow..

Any instructions ??

 

 

I've reported this to ArcticMama. You should hear from her soon on what she feels you should do at this point. Hang in there!

 

I also agree with Chelsea that the fish may get use to being syringe fed. Are you seeing any poop?

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Finish out the metro course please, and add in the Paraguard as directed. This one likes to knock back filters a bit so keep an eye on your water parameters in the hospital tank and, if needed, dose prime and water change every two days. Continue with syringe feeding, and I agree it should be real repashy, not just the powder. The powder works well for fry but I think the gel bits have a better chance of staying down.

If the Paraguard doesn't work, there are stronger medications we can consider. Hopefully it will be moot, however. The good thing about doing a metro round is we have eliminated gram positive bacteria from our potential pathogen list. So next up is a stronger antiparasitic, and if that isn't doing the trick a more broadly inhibitive medication combined with a gram negative antibiotic is the next try. We are trying to eliminate the most likely possibilities first.

And just to clarify, you will have no problems adding the last few days of metro in with the Paraguard, they won't do each other any harm in efficacy.

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Finish out the metro course please, and add in the Paraguard as directed. This one likes to knock back filters a bit so keep an eye on your water parameters in the hospital tank and, if needed, dose prime and water change every two days. Continue with syringe feeding, and I agree it should be real repashy, not just the powder. The powder works well for fry but I think the gel bits have a better chance of staying down.

If the Paraguard doesn't work, there are stronger medications we can consider. Hopefully it will be moot, however. The good thing about doing a metro round is we have eliminated gram positive bacteria from our potential pathogen list. So next up is a stronger antiparasitic, and if that isn't doing the trick a more broadly inhibitive medication combined with a gram negative antibiotic is the next try. We are trying to eliminate the most likely possibilities first.

And just to clarify, you will have no problems adding the last few days of metro in with the Paraguard, they won't do each other any harm in efficacy.

Got it!.. thx..

I'll add the Paraguard as soon as I get home.. just FYI, today is the 6th dose (11 day) of metro (in case someone wonders)

 

and no.. No poop

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Finish out the metro course please, and add in the Paraguard as directed. This one likes to knock back filters a bit so keep an eye on your water parameters in the hospital tank and, if needed, dose prime and water change every two days. Continue with syringe feeding, and I agree it should be real repashy, not just the powder. The powder works well for fry but I think the gel bits have a better chance of staying down.

If the Paraguard doesn't work, there are stronger medications we can consider. Hopefully it will be moot, however. The good thing about doing a metro round is we have eliminated gram positive bacteria from our potential pathogen list. So next up is a stronger antiparasitic, and if that isn't doing the trick a more broadly inhibitive medication combined with a gram negative antibiotic is the next try. We are trying to eliminate the most likely possibilities first.And just to clarify, you will have no problems adding the last few days of metro in with the Paraguard, they won't do each other any harm in efficacy.

Do you want me to do "an hour dip" with her or just regular dosage

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Oh no, dips are only really useful for knocking back visible external parasites. You want the longer bath course, at the lower concentration.

Just a quick parenthesis..

I have two butterflies and ranchu in the same tank.. and even though the ranchu is "living it" I left him with the butterflies to be treated w/ the metro..

 

Im planning to move the ranchu to the main tank as soon as the 14 days of metro ends..

 

Just making sure that a couple of days of Paraguard is not gonna lower the ranchu defenses...  :idont 

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He should be fine, especially if he is healthy and strong.

I think Im losing her.. :(

 

She has been breathing heavy all day / bottom sitting and when moving her swiming is very clumsy..

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Pardon the intrusion, hope it's not too inappropriate for me to butt in, but out of curiosity, what is the gh of your water?

I don't have it in top of my head..

Lisa (fantail1) gave me my exact number once but I lost it..

 

It was somewhere in the 3 or 400's.. my water is super hard

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Hopefully things are fine, but there isn't more that can be done right now. Keep syringe feeding and medicating and hope for the best. If your butterfly passes it won't be for lack of trying to help.

:grouphug

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Pardon the intrusion, hope it's not too inappropriate for me to butt in, but out of curiosity, what is the gh of your water?

I don't have it in top of my head..

Lisa (fantail1) gave me my exact number once but I lost it..

 

It was somewhere in the 3 or 400's.. my water is super hard

A water softener hasn't been installed since you last tested, has it?

Beautiful fish by the way.

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Pardon the intrusion, hope it's not too inappropriate for me to butt in, but out of curiosity, what is the gh of your water?

I don't have it in top of my head..

Lisa (fantail1) gave me my exact number once but I lost it..

 

It was somewhere in the 3 or 400's.. my water is super hard

A water softener hasn't been installed since you last tested, has it?

Beautiful fish by the way.

I've always had a water softener.. I asked about using soft water vs regular city water and I had divided answers. I use soft because is just easier for me

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Pardon the intrusion, hope it's not too inappropriate for me to butt in, but out of curiosity, what is the gh of your water?

I don't have it in top of my head..

Lisa (fantail1) gave me my exact number once but I lost it..

 

It was somewhere in the 3 or 400's.. my water is super hard

A water softener hasn't been installed since you last tested, has it?

Beautiful fish by the way.

I've always had a water softener.. I asked about using soft water vs regular city water and I had divided answers. I use soft because is just easier for me

 

Okay.  So here is my anecdotal experience and summary of my limited internet research.

 

I have a fish in quarantine who has similar issues to what you're describing.  He was fine for the first day or so and but shortly after I got the tank up to 0.3% he became very unhappy.  Like a sick puppy sitting on the bottom of the tank.  Even my husband was like, WTH is going on with your fish?  He was not like that when I got him and I doubted he was that sick from any infection.  He was eating but darting and sitting and just unhappy.

 

I was using my tap water which is softened by a NaCl regenerating softener.  Now I've used this water for my betta for years and have had other fish in it with no problems.  Due to another issue, it dawned on me that maybe that was the problem.  Osmotic stress from the salinated water in this chemically softened water.

 

So I changed his water with water from my outside spigots (unsoftened) and threw in a Wonder Shell (probably over kill, but that's how I roll).  In 24 hours he perked right back up.

 

If all else continues to fail, I would suggest adding some gh back to his quarantine water.   If you don't have access to unsoftened water you can try Seachem Repelnish or I think other Cichlid buffers would probably work in the short term. 

 

Hope I'm not stepping on toes here, just wanted to share my experience and hope it helps your beautiful fish.

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So I was surprised not to find too much online about chemically softened water and aquaria other than general admonitions not to use it.  Some anecdotes about people who have used it without problems, but then they weren't treating the fish with salt and reefers would never use softened water.

 

The water softeners don't actually take out the hardness, they just replace it (Ca and Mg) with Na.  The TDS and kH will stay the same but the gH will be zero and pH will still be neutral or basic (not acidic like naturally soft water).  Very unnatural water for fish (from what I read online) but great for us as the Ca and Mg wont precipitate out on our plumbing.

 

I would surmise that the addition of a salt treatment to chemically softened water is just too much osmotic chaos for a fish too handle.  My fish had the signs/symptoms of osmotic stress that I read about online and they resolved once I added back some minerals.

 

The issue that led me down this path: I have a 75 gallon that I am cycling with fish.  I was very excited to finally get a good nitrite bump and when I did I immediately went and did a water change and added salt.  I've been using the water from an outside spigot because it is closer to my tank, but this time I used the inside tap because it had been cooler the previous days and I wanted to match the water temps.  Well, the addition of salt and the reduction of the gH killed off my newly developing cycle.  I was devastated and confused.  I thought it was the salt at first but that didn't make sense from everything I've read (I dosed 0.1%) so it dawned on me that maybe it was the softened water (my normal water is around 11 degrees hardness, softened water is 0) and I had done a near 75% change.  I'm happy to say that with changing out that water and the addition of a Wonder Shell (probably over kill) my cycle is chugging back along.  In winter I am going to have to use my softened water so I will be playing around with Replenish to add back the gH  (and praying) until spring comes again. 

 

Hope that helps.  I am a newer aquarium keeper, so if what I wrote doesn't jive with the experience or knowledge of the more experienced here I'm not going to be upset if it is deleted.  Again, this is all my anecdotal experience and internet based research/knowledge.  Take it for what it's worth!

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So I was surprised not to find too much online about chemically softened water and aquaria other than general admonitions not to use it. Some anecdotes about people who have used it without problems, but then they weren't treating the fish with salt and reefers would never use softened water.

The water softeners don't actually take out the hardness, they just replace it (Ca and Mg) with Na. The TDS and kH will stay the same but the gH will be zero and pH will still be neutral or basic (not acidic like naturally soft water). Very unnatural water for fish (from what I read online) but great for us as the Ca and Mg wont precipitate out on our plumbing.

I would surmise that the addition of a salt treatment to chemically softened water is just too much osmotic chaos for a fish too handle. My fish had the signs/symptoms of osmotic stress that I read about online and they resolved once I added back some minerals.

The issue that led me down this path: I have a 75 gallon that I am cycling with fish. I was very excited to finally get a good nitrite bump and when I did I immediately went and did a water change and added salt. I've been using the water from an outside spigot because it is closer to my tank, but this time I used the inside tap because it had been cooler the previous days and I wanted to match the water temps. Well, the addition of salt and the reduction of the gH killed off my newly developing cycle. I was devastated and confused. I thought it was the salt at first but that didn't make sense from everything I've read (I dosed 0.1%) so it dawned on me that maybe it was the softened water (my normal water is around 11 degrees hardness, softened water is 0) and I had done a near 75% change. I'm happy to say that with changing out that water and the addition of a Wonder Shell (probably over kill) my cycle is chugging back along. In winter I am going to have to use my softened water so I will be playing around with Replenish to add back the gH (and praying) until spring comes again.

Hope that helps. I am a newer aquarium keeper, so if what I wrote doesn't jive with the experience or knowledge of the more experienced here I'm not going to be upset if it is deleted. Again, this is all my anecdotal experience and internet based research/knowledge. Take it for what it's worth!

I've used once (before softener) city water because of its minerals.. however it is not as easy to do water changes that with softened water.

My GH doesn't get affected (I think).. as I mentioned earlier it is in the 3 or 400's (w/ soft water)

My main 125G has soft water and I have no problems w it..

I definitely like to try city water with the butterfly but it concerns me that (if it works) and once out of QT.. she might go back to where she is now

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I've had fish in the low gH/softened water and they've been fine too. I suspect for some fish who may be already stressed the sudden lack of minerals and added salinity may be too much.

If he continues to decline it may be worth a try by adding some Ca and Mg back to his water as a last ditch effort. If he perks up and after you are done with the quarantine you can probably reacclimate him to the softened water when he goes into his main tank.

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I'm going to make a complete guess that the majority of people here use softened water, and put salt in it with no problems whatsoever.  In nature, goldfish live in ponds, lakes, and sluggish streams all of which contain soft, surface water.

 

I don't know why you had a cycle bump after your water change, but neither salt nor softened water would kill off your AOBs/AOAs.  (ammonia-oxidizing bacteria/ammonia oxidizing archaea).   

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