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AllieCalhoun

Our black demekin Tris is not doing well...

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Yes I am positive my water is fine.

Tomorrow I will try to get those other pictures working.

I know there is a problem with access of medicine, but maybe you can tell me what the best would be and then we search for an available alternative.

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Great! The more close up pictures of the affected area, the better. We will confer on the back end here about what the wisest treatment course is and then see what you can get locally that is close to it. But some really close macro images under good light of the skin issue would be great. I'm sorry I couldn't see the ones you posted earlier!

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Our demekin Tris is not doing well and we have tried all kinds of stuff already and it doesnt seem to help. First I will post a complete record of what we tried so far.

 

Treatment so far: June 23: Tris was swimming normally, but had weird looking spots in his tail, like it was damaged. We gave him a saltbath for 3 minutes with 25 grams of salt per Liter, and repeated this two times.

321619mieke91_0_82_wp_20150625_012.jpg

 

July 5: It was a heat wave here and the temperature of the water raised to like 25 degrees Celcius. The fish tend to react on that by being a little slow, but Tris laid on his right side for almost all the day. He never was a very active fish, but its not normal for a fish to lay on his side.

489558mieke91_0_82_wp_20150705_001.jpg

 

July 8: We took Tris to a koi-dealer who checked him for parasites. He was clean. The guy thought it was something bacteria-related and advised treatment with salt.

 

July 9 - july 18: We build up the salinity of the tank up to 4 grams per Liter.

 

July 14: We gave Tris a bath of medicin with Bactopur Direct (its for 30 minutes in a bucket, very concentrated treatment).

 

July 19: Situation is rather worse than better. The skin of his right side is damaged. His tail seems to be a little better. We repeated the concentrated treatment with Bactopur. All kinds of mucus came off of him.

599973mieke91_0_82_wp_20150719_008.jpg

 

292549mieke91_0_82_wp_20150719_015.jpg

At this point my husband posted on reddit. The advise was to change the water dayly, raise the salinity and feed medical food.

 

July 21: We put Tris in quarantine, so the changing would be easier and I could feed him by hand. First we did a three day treatment with Bactopur Direct, while I fed him peas. I wasnt sure he had recently pooped so I wanted to rule out constipation. The quarantine tank I changed dayly for 65% (more was not possible, or he would be above water).

898351mieke91_0_82_wp_20150721_002.jpg

 

997548mieke91_0_82_wp_20150721_003.jpg

July 24: After the cure I changed 100% and then started to build up the salinity to 4 grams per Liter. A goldfish friend sent me a bag of her medicated food, so after the treatment I started him on that. I had to handfeed him, but every day he put in a little more efford to get it. It was really very cute...

 

He started to swim a little more too, but still smal bits (but thats not very weird, considering he didnt have as much space as he is used to). When he wasnt swimming, he still laid down on the bottom on his right side. I was wondering if he was just so used to being fed that he got lazy so I tried to train him to come to the watersurface to eat, which almost succeded. But then he got worse. He started to produce A LOT more mucus, it got in the filter as a slimy layer and the tank started to smell, even though I changed the water every day. He seemed to do worse again, so we decided to put him back in the big tank, so the water quality would be more stable and he would be with his friends (here in Holland we know by experience that these creatures need company).

 

August 6: Tris moved back into the big tank.

 

Now he is still on the bottom on his right side, he doesnt get to the food but if I try to feed him, he does eat, but not very eager. When I am not looking he changes position but he rarely swim, and when he does it juist looks weird. His mucus got a little less but his color isnt back on brightly black yet.

 

About our tank:

- 600 Liter

- 2 filters that pomp 1200 Liter per hour each.

- 1 air pomp/stone

- 7 fancy goldfish: 2 ranchu's, 2 ryukins (one big and one little), one redcap, one fantail and the sick demekin.

- 50% water change once a week

- Waterlevels are normal, NO2 and NH3 are always zero.

- temperature is 'room temperature', which is mostly 20/21 degrees Celcius.

 

I would really like to know what the problem is. I think some of the problems are related to his swimming blatter (or part of it) but that just doesnt cut it. (we have had a lot of problems with swimming blatters, but that was mostly because the fish was internally deformed, which happens a lot with goldfish in Holland because they are more often than not held in tanks that are waaaay to little) Swimming blatter doesnt explain the skin stuff. We are very fond of Tris, he has been so brave, doing so good after such a bad start. It just kills me to see him like this.

 

Those are the photo's that were supposed to be in the first post. I will try tonight when its dark to make some closeup photo's from the skinstuff. I spotted some weird things at other fish too, so maybe its related.

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Oh my! With that bloat/side laying and those fins I'm definitely thinking bacterial infection. Did we ever figure out what the ingredients in the bactopur were? It could be that it's just not been knocked back sufficiently and is lingering or resurging.

That is most definitely not just old age, though!

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Okay, it won't be fast, but my personal favorite aquatic store, American Aquarium Products, does ship the the Netherlands. I don't know how strict your customs are or if they restrict antibiotics, but I'd strongly, strongly recommend ordering medication through there. It won't be as fast as finding something locally but might be your best bet for the rest of the tank if they're also looking poorly.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ShippingandReturnPolicy.html

If you have a fish vet there, this might be a great time to look into Baytril injections. Those knock back infection marvelously, though few vets will treat fish. It's up to you if you want to go this way, of course. Please let me know how you want to proceed.

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First some more pictures (btw: on the Dutch forum I posted the same and there people say: just put him out of his misery.. )

 

Eefje has some irregularities too. First we worried about it, but nothing happened... She behaves quite normal, although she hangs a little more than she used to do. The irregularities are mostly bumps, that mostly look furry. Yesterday I saw she has a new big bump on her side, I dont like that.

 132488mieke91_0_82_img_6340.jpg

 

 599589mieke91_0_82_img_6335.jpg

 

Elsa also had some stuff going on just above her eye, but it dissappeared before I could begin to worry. You can see it above, Elsa is the yellow fish.

 

Lieke has a massive swimblatter issue and she hangs upside down all day, except from when she takes a swim (which she does very noisy :P ) The part of her skin that is above water irritates, but the spots come and go... We were on the edge of putting her down and then the redness dissappeared... so we hesitate.

 864983mieke91_0_82_img_6342.jpg

 

Then back to Tris. The redness in his tail is a little alarming but not too much - he always had a little red in his tail, he is just one of those fish who doesnt lose it easily once he's had stress. I poked him so he would take a swim, and I filmed that so you can see him move and see his skin. After that I took this amazing photo of him in action :D

 939715mieke91_0_82_img_6358.jpg

 

This is the the movie.

 

Fantailfan1 said this about the ingredient of bactopur: nifurpirinol.  It's a nitrofuran antibiotic

 

I dont know about a vet for fish around here. In Holland fish are not taken very seriously, most vets dont have a clue. Goldfish are not seen as high-value pets...

Edited by AllieCalhoun

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Your video is listed as private, so we can't see it.

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Allie, read this thread.  

 

I believe you can get colloidal silver.  Koko is our expert on this treatment, which has cleared up skin conditions.  I will ask her to advise you on treatment if you wish. 

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Oh wow... What a wonderful story! I dont really understand what got your fish better, but it surely is hopefull for Tris.

 

I recognize the part about swimming for little bits. Tris does that mostly in the evening and yesterday he even made it to the top of the water! (but there was no food there, for I dont feed after 9 PM (experience taught me that they are already sleepy-headed then and not very interested in eating).

 

I dont know anything about the treatment you mention, but I would really like the advice. The more advice the better I can make a deceision.

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I don't know what cured him either, but the duckweed was certainly a major factor.

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I bought it initially and grow it in a tub of used fish water.  Unfortunately I can't find it in the wild here and have trouble growing it through the summer.  It likes warm water, but not as hot as it gets here.  If I could collect it from a ditch, I would do so.  I would set up two buckets of used fish water and transfer it daily to fresh used water for a week to clean it up.

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If you would like to do Silver hun.... I would like you to get 500ppm min...http://www.amazon.com/Colloidal-Silver-Natural-Path-Wings/dp/B0049Z034K

 

 

I use the 1100ppm but its a little more Pricey :o

 

Once you have it hun... Get a 1-2 gallon bowl with tank water or tap with the water conditioner in it... you dont want Chlorine in the water (silver doesn't work well in it :( ) then you want to place in there 5-6 drops for now.... Do this every day but update us when you do, we can adjust the amount :)

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Omg.. I am sorry but we cant afford that...

Can we first set a diagnosis?

Then we can figure out an affordible treatment from there.

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Bacterial infections exacerbating swim bladder disorders, and run of the mill swim bladder disorder, among the three you showed if I had the guess. The bump that got fuzzy along with other bumps look to my eye like bacterial cysts. For diet, Shakaho is right that duckweed is likely your very best bet got floatiness and overall condition. For bacterial issues, something antibacterial and antimicrobial (the colloidal silver would qualify, as would the antibiotics I recommended shipping in) are your best bet. Euthanizing is also an option. The silver and AAP antibiotics are going to be roughly similar in cost.

It's hard to give definitive diagnosis without being there in person, but that's what I see based on your data and images.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Allie, we can't make a diagnosis.  There are no fish veterinarians on this forum.  Even if there were, no responsible vet would diagnose a patient without even seeing it, let alone without laboratory analysis.  

 

We do know treatments suitable for sets of symptoms that have proven useful and with minimal side effects.  Unfortunately, the medications we know and trust are not available to you.  Those you have available are not familiar to us, and we have not been able to determine their active ingredients.

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Okey, let me summarize.

- The most likely stuff going on is bacterial infection combined with swimblatter stuff.

- That silver stuff is too expensive, unfortunately.

- We can try duckweed.

- What other medicine/active ingredients would you recomment if I lived in the US? Then I will find an alternative accessible here.

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That was just a suggest of the bottle..... What I would do if I was you is go to Amazon and look for some Silver like that with at least a 500ppm....or even look around locally and see if you can find it... you dont have to buy that exact kind...

 

Also Silver is a very gentle antibiotic and a general all around on too... :)

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Okey I have had a good look around on the internet.

 

AAP sells API General Cure with metronidazole and praziquantel and that looks affordible. (although shipping is still quite expensive)

 

In Holland I can buy:

- Sanikoi Wormex, that contains (only) praziquantel.

- Sera professional tremazol, also praziquantel

 

I didnt come across Dutch medicines with metrodinazole, all google tells me is that is causes cancer and is very hard to get your hands on.

 

I searched for colloidal silver, but in high concentration (500ppm) its really not affordible. I can buy stuff in low concentration (10-50 ppm) but I guess thats not nearly as affective? That means that silver-stuff is not an option. I hope there is something else we can try.

 

I also googeled baytril injections, but they are most common for dogs and cats and I read that its best to have a vet inject that and thats also a problem... I could call the koi specialist around here, but I know that he has no experience with fancy goldfish.

 

Then about this, and I will try it again because its very important to me:

In Holland we first study the symptoms as good as we can and then we make a suggestion as to what the problem is, and then we recommend a treatment, in that order.

Now with the same symptoms, I have heard a variety of problems. It really makes a huge difference in treatment if we are dealing with parasites or bacterial stuff. (I know one can lead to another, but you cant treat both at the same time, can you?) I know you guys are no vets, I am neither, but we try to understand everything as good as we can, don't we?

I want to know why I am trying a medicine before I try it.

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Well I can tell ya we do think its a Bacterial issue, possible with a parasite.... But with redness in the fins and flipped over like that I can say there is a bacterial issue....

 

As for the Silver you can get the low dose one but we will need more... Remember too hun, that the meds arent just a once thing, you will have them on hand later for other issues that come up. When my fish get sick I try to buy the meds that I need and can afford but also remembering if they are costly to get enough so I dont have to order it again.

 

I hope that makes since :)

 

All we want to do is help ya :)

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That's why I linked to American Aquarium Products. They ship to the Netherlands and carry every medication we use on this site except the colloidal silvery, which any decent apothecary has.

I live in the U.S. but remotely, the shipping is usually $30 USD for me, minimum, not including the products. But stocking up has saved the lives of several of my fish. It's s low cost when I consider their lifespans and even the cost of all my aquarium equipment and fish.

Metronidazole, Kanaplex, Triple Sulfa, Furan-2, Praziquintal, (Epsom salt, Aquarium salt,) Potassium Permanganate, Methylene Blue, Quick Cure, and yes, API General Cure are all in my medicinal toolkit from that site, because I cannot find any of those locally with any ease except the salts in parentheses. That is something you may wNt to budget for down the road, since it is cheaper to buy a bunch at once than just a de medications when you consider the shipped cost.

Everything up to me is airmail or slow barge, I understand the cost issues. But Shakaho and Koko summed it up well - we are trying to help you with our limited online resources and the rest is up to you.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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I know you just want to help and I really appreciate it, its just sometimes hard for me to get the ducks in a row.

I dont have the fundsnow to buy a bunce of stuff in advance. Everything I normally need is within fifteen minutes of my home.

As to the bacterial problem: What antibiotics besides silver are good? ? The stuff in API general is mostly against parasites, isnt it?

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API general cure is good stuff if you need broad spectrum coverage, but in this case I think it would be ineffective. You could try and and might get lucky, though. It does have metronidazole, which is one of the antibiotics we believe you need. If you haven't treated your fish for flukes recently the prazi will help. And it certainly won't hurt.

Can you get methylene blue locally? That will help inhibit any skin issues from worsening and can improve blood poisoning as well, and will work synergistically with the General Cure. I'd rather you use colloidal silver instead of meth blue, but the meth blue will also work and is cheap cheap.

Edited by Arctic Mama
Fixed typo obscuring comprehension. Whoops!

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