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Our black demekin Tris is not doing well...


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Our demekin Tris is not doing well and we have tried all kinds of stuff already and it doesnt seem to help. First I will post a complete record of what we tried so far.

 

Treatment so far: June 23: Tris was swimming normally, but had weird looking spots in his tail, like it was damaged. We gave him a saltbath for 3 minutes with 25 grams of salt per Liter, and repeated this two times. photo

 

July 5: It was a heat wave here and the temperature of the water raised to like 25 degrees Celcius. The fish tend to react on that by being a little slow, but Tris laid on his right side for almost all the day. He never was a very active fish, but its not normal for a fish to lay on his side. photo

 

July 8: We took Tris to a koi-dealer who checked him for parasites. He was clean. The guy thought it was something bacteria-related and advised treatment with salt.

 

July 9 - july 18: We build up the salinity of the tank up to 4 grams per Liter.

 

July 14: We gave Tris a bath of medicin with Bactopur Direct (its for 30 minutes in a bucket, very concentrated treatment).

 

July 19: Situation is rather worse than better. The skin of his right side is damaged. His tail seems to be a little better. We repeated the concentrated treatment with Bactopur. All kinds of mucus came off of him. photo photo

At this point my husband posted on reddit. The advise was to change the water dayly, raise the salinity and feed medical food.

 

July 21: We put Tris in quarantine, so the changing would be easier and I could feed him by hand. First we did a three day treatment with Bactopur Direct, while I fed him peas. I wasnt sure he had recently pooped so I wanted to rule out constipation. The quarantine tank I changed dayly for 65% (more was not possible, or he would be above water). photo

 

July 24: After the cure I changed 100% and then started to build up the salinity to 4 grams per Liter. A goldfish friend sent me a bag of her medicated food, so after the treatment I started him on that. I had to handfeed him, but every day he put in a little more efford to get it. It was really very cute...

 

He started to swim a little more too, but still smal bits (but thats not very weird, considering he didnt have as much space as he is used to). When he wasnt swimming, he still laid down on the bottom on his right side. I was wondering if he was just so used to being fed that he got lazy so I tried to train him to come to the watersurface to eat, which almost succeded. But then he got worse. He started to produce A LOT more mucus, it got in the filter as a slimy layer and the tank started to smell, even though I changed the water every day. He seemed to do worse again, so we decided to put him back in the big tank, so the water quality would be more stable and he would be with his friends (here in Holland we know by experience that these creatures need company).

 

August 6: Tris moved back into the big tank.

 

Now he is still on the bottom on his right side, he doesnt get to the food but if I try to feed him, he does eat, but not very eager. When I am not looking he changes position but he rarely swim, and when he does it juist looks weird. His mucus got a little less but his color isnt back on brightly black yet.

 

About our tank:

- 600 Liter

- 2 filters that pomp 1200 Liter per hour each.

- 1 air pomp/stone

- 7 fancy goldfish: 2 ranchu's, 2 ryukins (one big and one little), one redcap, one fantail and the sick demekin.

- 50% water change once a week

- Waterlevels are normal, NO2 and NH3 are always zero.

- temperature is 'room temperature', which is mostly 20/21 degrees Celcius.

 

I would really like to know what the problem is. I think some of the problems are related to his swimming blatter (or part of it) but that just doesnt cut it. (we have had a lot of problems with swimming blatters, but that was mostly because the fish was internally deformed, which happens a lot with goldfish in Holland because they are more often than not held in tanks that are waaaay to little) Swimming blatter doesnt explain the skin stuff. We are very fond of Tris, he has been so brave, doing so good after such a bad start. It just kills me to see him like this.

 

 

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Welcome to the forum! Thank you for such an exhaustive history, that will help us help you. Could you please do us a favor and fill this form out so we have all the current information we need in one spot?

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank)

* Nitrite Level(Tank)

* Nitrate level(Tank)

* Ammonia Level(Tap)

* Nitrite Level(Tap)

* Nitrate level(Tap)

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

* Water temperature?

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

* How often do you change the water and how much?

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

* What do you feed your fish and how often?

* Any new fish added to the tank?

* Any medications added to the tank?

* Any unusual behavior or symptoms?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Welcome!

 

Please read our guidelines for healthy goldfish.

 

Fantailfan1 beat me to asking what was in the medicated food, but I haven't found the active ingredients in Bactopur Direct either.

 

nifurpirinol.  It's a nitrofuran antibiotic . . . I think I'd prefer a lower dose bath for several days vs a 30 minute bath.  :idont

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Hi Allie,

 

I am not the most knowledgeable person here when it comes to medication or to advise treatment.

 

I do know Bactopur and in a high consentration it can easily deprive oxygen. The shedding of slimecoat is due to the high salinity, this is not a problem for the fish it will just start producing more mucus which in case of parasites can be a good thing. Combining treatments, salt and bactopur in this case, is very hard on a fish and i have often heard it became fatal.

 

In a relatively cold climate like in Holland i still can get very hot, when that happens you need to be aware that with a couple of degrees extra the bacterial activity can double. If your tank and especially filters are clean the system can handle it (at least my tanks do) but if you are away on holliday for example you could run into trouble.

 

To me this fish look in good shape and proportion, exept for the bacterial infection offcourse. It is not uncommon to see aquarium goldfish that are 5 years old dying of 'old age'.Part has to do with the genetics, some also with damage suffered during its life and so even before you got the fish.

 

Maybe not a correct vetinary approach but to me this looks like an intestinal inflammation or otherwise just old age at which internal organs simply gave up. Feeding medicated food and keeping some salt in the water(in quarantine) would have been enough as treatment if you ask me.

 

Finrot as such is usually due to fish living in bad water conditions for a long time, usually more fish in the same tank develop this condition so i dont think that is the problem here.

 

Hope this helps and other will chime in their thoughts on the situation.

Edited by Hinfin
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Welcome to the forum! Thank you for such an exhaustive history, that will help us help you. Could you please do us a favor and fill this form out so we have all the current information we need in one spot?

 

Hi guys, thanks for reading my post. Here is the information Arctic Mama asked about.

 

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) > 0

* Nitrite Level(Tank) > 0

* Nitrate level(Tank) > 1

* Ammonia Level(Tap) > 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap) > 0

* Nitrate level(Tap) > 0

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) > PH = 8, GH = 10, KH = 7, I dont know what chloramines are, I dont have a test for that.

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) > PH = 9, GH = 9, KH = 7

 

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

> I use drops. NO2 and NH3 are from the brand Sera, the others from the brand Colombo.

* Water temperature?

> currently its 22 degrees Celcius.

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

> 600 Liters, thats 158,5 gallons if I am correct. It has been running for a year now (although the filters have been running a lot longer than that).

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

> We have two of the same filters, Jebao 304. Each filter has the capacity of 1200 Liters per hour and the volume is approximately 10 Liters (2.64 gallon?)

* How often do you change the water and how much?

> We change the water every week and we change 50%.

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

> Last sunday I did the last waterchange of 50%.

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

> We have seven fish in the tank, three big ones, three relatively small ones and one that is inbetween. (how do you usually explain the size of fish?) Tris is (one of) the biggest.

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

> After waterchange I use Sansai Biorex.

* What do you feed your fish and how often?

> I feed the fish usually twice a day. We have three or four different kinds of Hikari food.

* Any new fish added to the tank?

> No, last time we had new fish was in november/december 2014.

* Any medications added to the tank?

> No

* Any unusual behavior or symptoms?

> Not really, except for Tris. (One of our fish has a huge swimblatter issue, so its hanging upside down at the waterlevel, but thats most likely due to misgrowth, which happens a lot here in Holland with Oranda's and low quality fish because they have a bad start at the petstore. We are discussing putting her out of her misery some time soon.)

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:hi and welcome 

 

What medicine is in the medicated food you are feeding?

The brand was Colombo morenicol cytofex pro. I have no idea what the active ingredient is... Googeling didnt help much either, but maybe you guys know this stuff?

 

 

Welcome!

 

Please read our guidelines for healthy goldfish.

 

Fantailfan1 beat me to asking what was in the medicated food, but I haven't found the active ingredients in Bactopur Direct either.

 

nifurpirinol.  It's a nitrofuran antibiotic . . . I think I'd prefer a lower dose bath for several days vs a 30 minute bath.  :idont

 

We did both in the end. I also prefer the three-day-treatment, but I didnt want to put all the fish to that (and that is really a very expensive thing to do with 600 Liters of water). Is it good stuff or not?

 

Hi Allie,

 

I am not the most knowledgeable person here when it comes to medication or to advise treatment.

 

I do know Bactopur and in a high consentration it can easily deprive oxygen. The shedding of slimecoat is due to the high salinity, this is not a problem for the fish it will just start producing more mucus which in case of parasites can be a good thing. Combining treatments, salt and bactopur in this case, is very hard on a fish and i have often heard it became fatal.

 

In a relatively cold climate like in Holland i still can get very hot, when that happens you need to be aware that with a couple of degrees extra the bacterial activity can double. If your tank and especially filters are clean the system can handle it (at least my tanks do) but if you are away on holliday for example you could run into trouble.

 

To me this fish look in good shape and proportion, exept for the bacterial infection offcourse. It is not uncommon to see aquarium goldfish that are 5 years old dying of 'old age'.Part has to do with the genetics, some also with damage suffered during its life and so even before you got the fish.

 

Maybe not a correct vetinary approach but to me this looks like an intestinal inflammation or otherwise just old age at which internal organs simply gave up. Feeding medicated food and keeping some salt in the water(in quarantine) would have been enough as treatment if you ask me.

 

Finrot as such is usually due to fish living in bad water conditions for a long time, usually more fish in the same tank develop this condition so i dont think that is the problem here.

 

Hope this helps and other will chime in their thoughts on the situation.

Just curious: how old do fancy goldfish usually get in your opinion/experience?

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Just curious: how old do fancy goldfish usually get in your opinion/experience?

 

 

It highly depends of what GF we are talking about i guess. Ive had Koi and Commons in ponds that were 10+ easy. One lionhead and a fantail lasted for 7-8 years but they were also in a pond for most of their life. In an aquarium 5 years old seems pretty decent to me at least but ill bet some will manage to keep fancies longer. Maybe a good question to ask in a seperate thread so more can chime in.

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Yeah, kind off. Maybe I can ask a precizer question:

 

Now that we established that Tris sufferes from being old: how do I proceed? How to treat him from now on? (In Holland the answer is always: put him down, but somehow I feel like you guys might have a different opinion.)

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When he wasnt swimming, he still laid down on the bottom on his right side. I was wondering if he was just so used to being fed that he got lazy so I tried to train him to come to the watersurface to eat, which almost succeded. But then he got worse. He started to produce A LOT more mucus, it got in the filter as a slimy layer and the tank started to smell, even though I changed the water every day. He seemed to do worse again, so we decided to put him back in the big tank, so the water quality would be more stable and he would be with his friends (here in Holland we know by experience that these creatures need company).

 

August 6: Tris moved back into the big tank.

 

Now he is still on the bottom on his right side, he doesnt get to the food but if I try to feed him, he does eat, but not very eager. When I am not looking he changes position but he rarely swim, and when he does it juist looks weird. His mucus got a little less but his color isnt back on brightly black yet.

 

About our tank:

- 600 Liter

- 2 filters that pomp 1200 Liter per hour each.

- 1 air pomp/stone

- 7 fancy goldfish: 2 ranchu's, 2 ryukins (one big and one little), one redcap, one fantail and the sick demekin.

- 50% water change once a week

- Waterlevels are normal, NO2 and NH3 are always zero.

- temperature is 'room temperature', which is mostly 20/21 degrees Celcius.

 

I would really like to know what the problem is. I think some of the problems are related to his swimming blatter (or part of it) but that just doesnt cut it. (we have had a lot of problems with swimming blatters, but that was mostly because the fish was internally deformed, which happens a lot with goldfish in Holland because they are more often than not held in tanks that are waaaay to little) Swimming blatter doesnt explain the skin stuff. We are very fond of Tris, he has been so brave, doing so good after such a bad start. It just kills me to see him like this.

In my experience fish with active infections or parasite infestations stink.  When I treat such fish, I always use the bucket-to-bucket method of 100% water changes.  This gets rid of the materials and pests shed by the fish, but also provides an assay for the state of infection.  The fresh water has no odor.  As the infection subsides, the odor after a day in the tank decreases.

 

Can you obtain metronidazole and praziquantel?  If so, I would like to use them to see if we can get rid of the skin stuff.

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So basically I am doing everything right and there is nothing we can do anymore?

Can you at least diagnose the problem?

Yeah, kind off. Maybe I can ask a precizer question:

Now that we established that Tris sufferes from being old: how do I proceed? How to treat him from now on? (In Holland the answer is always: put him down, but somehow I feel like you guys might have a different opinion.)

Forgive me - I had a copying boo boo and the advice relating to swim bladder was for a different poster. I do think it applies here, too, but I agree with Sharon that there may be another issue at play if you're getting a fishy smell and skin problems, too. I somehow mixed up two different threads.

She is giving you great advice, so ignore my previous oops and go with it - I think you're correct that the skin things are unrelated, unless he has been exposed to enough air that he has developed a raw spot.

It worries me that whatever he has survived several other treatments, though! Your pictures aren't loading for me, unfortunately, but the other helpers and mods may be able to see them and assist you better. I'm just going off of what you wrote.

Shakaho has tons of experience. Between her and Fantailfan you're in very good hands :)

Edited by Arctic Mama
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When he wasnt swimming, he still laid down on the bottom on his right side. I was wondering if he was just so used to being fed that he got lazy so I tried to train him to come to the watersurface to eat, which almost succeded. But then he got worse. He started to produce A LOT more mucus, it got in the filter as a slimy layer and the tank started to smell, even though I changed the water every day. He seemed to do worse again, so we decided to put him back in the big tank, so the water quality would be more stable and he would be with his friends (here in Holland we know by experience that these creatures need company).

 

August 6: Tris moved back into the big tank.

 

Now he is still on the bottom on his right side, he doesnt get to the food but if I try to feed him, he does eat, but not very eager. When I am not looking he changes position but he rarely swim, and when he does it juist looks weird. His mucus got a little less but his color isnt back on brightly black yet.

 

About our tank:

- 600 Liter

- 2 filters that pomp 1200 Liter per hour each.

- 1 air pomp/stone

- 7 fancy goldfish: 2 ranchu's, 2 ryukins (one big and one little), one redcap, one fantail and the sick demekin.

- 50% water change once a week

- Waterlevels are normal, NO2 and NH3 are always zero.

- temperature is 'room temperature', which is mostly 20/21 degrees Celcius.

 

I would really like to know what the problem is. I think some of the problems are related to his swimming blatter (or part of it) but that just doesnt cut it. (we have had a lot of problems with swimming blatters, but that was mostly because the fish was internally deformed, which happens a lot with goldfish in Holland because they are more often than not held in tanks that are waaaay to little) Swimming blatter doesnt explain the skin stuff. We are very fond of Tris, he has been so brave, doing so good after such a bad start. It just kills me to see him like this.

In my experience fish with active infections or parasite infestations stink.  When I treat such fish, I always use the bucket-to-bucket method of 100% water changes.  This gets rid of the materials and pests shed by the fish, but also provides an assay for the state of infection.  The fresh water has no odor.  As the infection subsides, the odor after a day in the tank decreases.

 

Can you obtain metronidazole and praziquantel?  If so, I would like to use them to see if we can get rid of the skin stuff.

 

Wow... those medicines are only on docters receipt and really very expensive. I dont know how to get that here and we dont have a lot of money... Why are you recommending those medicines? What do you think thats going on?

 

About the bucket to bucket method: we dont have two quarantine-tanks and Tris is quite a large fish, so he needs a large quarantine tank... Or is size not really a problem when talking about quarantine?

Edited by AllieCalhoun
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So basically I am doing everything right and there is nothing we can do anymore?

Can you at least diagnose the problem?

Yeah, kind off. Maybe I can ask a precizer question:

Now that we established that Tris sufferes from being old: how do I proceed? How to treat him from now on? (In Holland the answer is always: put him down, but somehow I feel like you guys might have a different opinion.)

Forgive me - I had a copying boo boo and the advice relating to swim bladder was for a different poster. I do think it applies here, too, but I agree with Sharon that there may be another issue at play if you're getting a fishy smell and skin problems, too. I somehow mixed up two different threads.

She is giving you great advice, so ignore my previous oops and go with it - I think you're correct that the skin things are unrelated, unless he has been exposed to enough air that he has developed a raw spot.

It worries me that whatever he has survived several other treatments, though! Your pictures aren't loading for me, unfortunately, but the other helpers and mods may be able to see them and assist you better. I'm just going off of what you wrote.

Shakaho has tons of experience. Between her and Fantailfan you're in very good hands :)

 

 

The weird thing is this: when we put him in quarantine, the main problem was that he laid on his side and that he didnt eat. He had a little skin thing, but mostly on the side that he laid on the whole day, so that is expected. Yes, he had a little too much mucus, but not out of hand.

While in quarantine, the skin on his side got better, everything got a little better, he swam more active too, but then it suddenly got worse: more mucus, less swimming and a stink. So thats why we thought it was because of the quarantine and maybe too long treatment with salt and medical food so we moved him back into the big tank. Now his skin lookes still not as it is supposed to, but its better than it was in quarantine... Only problem is that his side-skin-problem is back and he is still not eating much (although he pooped this afternoon so maybe he eats from the plants when I am not looking) and he still lays on his side (which can easily be swim-blatter-related).

 

I am a little hesistant to put him back in quarantine on salt, because we did that before and it ultimately got him worse...

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We usually use 10 gallon containers for quarantine/hospital tanks.  These can be plastic storage bins, as well as tanks.  They don't have to be large for bucket-to-bucket since you are changing all of the water daily.  

 

Metronidazole is an antibiotic that has some anti-parasitic activity.  Praziquantel  kills flatworms, particularly flukes, while being very gentle for fish.  There is a mixture of these two called API General Cure which might be available somewhere in Europe. 

 

We have a real problem with recommending fish medications in Europe, since we don't have anyone who really knows what is available in various European countries.  

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Okey, maybe it helps if I tell you what medicine I can get around here.

 

For fancy goldfish we mostly use against parasites:

- Sera Omnipur, which is a broad range medicin against the most common fish diseases, such as bacterial infections, mouth and fin rot, infection by Saprolegnia, Achlya and other fungi, infection by costia, chilodonella, trichodina and oodinium, infection by skin and gill flukes and skin injuries and wounds. (quoting the instructions). Active substances in 100ml: amino acridine hydrochloride 105 mg, acriflavine chloride 600 mg, ethacridine lactate 3,375 mg, malachite green oxalate 79 mg. Dosage: 1 ML medicine per each 20 litres of water.

- Colombo Dactycid, which is a more agressive treatment against hookworm, roundworm, skinworm and gillworm, including cammalanus cotti and hydra, planaria. The instruction does not say what the active ingredients are, but I am surprised to see that it might be Praziquantel. (maybe you can verify that?)

 

Those are the most common medicines against parasites. Do you think that is the problem? Because before we did any treatment we had him checked for parasites and he was clean...
 

Also: if thats the problem with Tris, dont we have to treat the other fish as well?

 

(If you want to know what medicine are available in Holland, this is a pretty good link: http://www.aquariaveldhuis.nl/index.php?categoryID=213&laatallemerkenzien=1&show_all=yes

Not all medicine are safe for goldfish though...)

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But we dont have a diagnosis yet... do we?

In Holland we always say not to treat with anything before you know what the illness is.

 

Pictures (he didnt move when I was taking photo's, so I dont have another angle or something)
 119517mieke91_0_82_img_6305.jpg

 941191mieke91_0_82_img_6306.jpg

 

(btw: if I want to introduce the rest of my fish to you guys, where do I open a topic?)

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Poor thing. Hope you find out what's wrong with him and he feels better soon.You can post picture's in the Goldfish Photo's and Video Section.

Edited by Heidi030
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Okay, that's the first picture of yours that has loaded for me. You're positive your water params are solid? I'm leaning more toward bacterial infection with possibly a second parasite issue, especially with that streaky tail.

Let me talk with the mods about this and see what we come up with, given your access issues with fish meds.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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