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QandD

Mystery, never-ending parasites

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We can always do the Paraguard later. Maybe take a three or four day treatment break and then give the melafix a try :)

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We can always do the Paraguard later. Maybe take a three or four day treatment break and then give the melafix a try :)

 

OK--I will keep them at .3% salt in the mean time with the hope that it'll help their fins. They'll be happy to not be inundated with antibiotics I think!

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Unless they are actively getting worse breaks won't hurt a thing. I have seen some fish do poorly with Pimafix and Melafix so it's up to your judgment - usually they are already weakened and it irritates the gills, but it doesn't actively harm them, just annoys them and seems to increase respiration :)

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Unless they are actively getting worse breaks won't hurt a thing. I have seen some fish do poorly with Pimafix and Melafix so it's up to your judgment - usually they are already weakened and it irritates the gills, but it doesn't actively harm them, just annoys them and seems to increase respiration :)

 

OK-- just one more thing. I've noticed on Vickie's eroded pelvic fin that the rotted area is starting to turn black/dark grey. Is this an indication of healing or something not good?

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Unless they are actively getting worse breaks won't hurt a thing. I have seen some fish do poorly with Pimafix and Melafix so it's up to your judgment - usually they are already weakened and it irritates the gills, but it doesn't actively harm them, just annoys them and seems to increase respiration :)

 

OK-- just one more thing. I've noticed on Vickie's eroded pelvic fin that the rotted area is starting to turn black/dark grey. Is this an indication of healing or something not good?

 

 

It could be.... lets see how it looks in a day or two....

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is it on her body or the fin, itself?

ETA - Koko beat me. We are thinking along the same lines on this. It could just be melanophore migration from healing or it could be something else, but time and location would tell.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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is it on her body or the fin, itself?

ETA - Koko beat me. We are thinking along the same lines on this. It could just be melanophore migration from healing or it could be something else, but time and location would tell.

It's on the tip of her damaged fin. I'll be sure to keep an eye on it!

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is it on her body or the fin, itself?

ETA - Koko beat me. We are thinking along the same lines on this. It could just be melanophore migration from healing or it could be something else, but time and location would tell.

It's on the tip of her damaged fin. I'll be sure to keep an eye on it!

 

 

Update: the blackness on the tip of Vickie's fin has not spread, though it is still present. Other tail/fin fraying on both Vickie and Duchess remains the same, though they are both active and eating, though they are gulping and Duchess has trouble turning, as before. I am going to change their water again today since I have noticed white gossamer material floating around the tank (possibly slime coat from the .3% salinity?). Their ammonia is at .25 ppm, however, so I am sure that the black fin stuff is not a burn. 

 

I think I would like to start Paraguard due to the persistent fraying and behavioral issues--that is, if it is sufficiently gentle, and if it would be OK to do with .3%. If salinity is not a good combination with Paraguard, I can take it out. Should I just follow the bottle directions and be sure to keep their lights off, since I understand that malachite green is light sensitive (unless I have that wrong)? 

 

Thank you again for all of your input so far. 

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Likely the black is just melanophore migration and a sign of the tissue healing (this can happen with any injury, including but not limited to ammonia burns and fin rot, or even spawning damage), if it's not spreading or the fins look worse. That's good!

Paraguard is marine-safe, your salinity level won't hurt anything. Are you certain you don't want to continue with the a Melafix first? Remember that any treatment is stressful, so if you think they might benefit from a longer break it doesn't sound like any potential parasite issues are going to down them in the meantime. But you're the owner and the one watching your animals, so it is your call :)

And yes, use as directed and keep the tank as dark and well aerated as possible. If your heat is not also up now is the time to bring it gradually up to 78 degrees, as it will speed up the life cycle of whatever might be ailing the fish and increase the chances of the Paraguard knocking it out entirely.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Likely the black is just melanophore migration and a sign of the tissue healing (this can happen with any injury, including but not limited to ammonia burns and fin rot, or even spawning damage), if it's not spreading or the fins look worse. That's good!

Paraguard is marine-safe, your salinity level won't hurt anything. Are you certain you don't want to continue with the a Melafix first? Remember

that any treatment is stressful, so if you think they might benefit from a longer break it doesn't sound like any potential parasite issues are going to down them in the meantime. But you're the owner and the one watching your animals, so it is your call :)

And yes, use as directed and keep the tank as dark and well aerated as possible. If your heat is not also up now is the time to bring it gradually up to 78 degrees, as it will speed up the life cycle of whatever might be ailing the fish and increase the chances of the Paraguard knocking it out entirely.

 

Thank you for your response! I will try Melafix for a week provided that the fish aren't too stressed, and failing that, will move to Paraguard. 

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Likely the black is just melanophore migration and a sign of the tissue healing (this can happen with any injury, including but not limited to ammonia burns and fin rot, or even spawning damage), if it's not spreading or the fins look worse. That's good!

Paraguard is marine-safe, your salinity level won't hurt anything. Are you certain you don't want to continue with the a Melafix first? Remember

that any treatment is stressful, so if you think they might benefit from a longer break it doesn't sound like any potential parasite issues are going to down them in the meantime. But you're the owner and the one watching your animals, so it is your call :)

And yes, use as directed and keep the tank as dark and well aerated as possible. If your heat is not also up now is the time to bring it gradually up to 78 degrees, as it will speed up the life cycle of whatever might be ailing the fish and increase the chances of the Paraguard knocking it out entirely.

 

Thank you for your response! I will try Melafix for a week provided that the fish aren't too stressed, and failing that, will move to Paraguard. 

 

 

Update: Vickie's tail is getting worse, and I'm noticing more opaque spots on Duchess's tail as well. I have been doing daily 100% water changes with .3% salinity, powder Prazi, and Melafix. I've not added Melafix again today, since I don't think it's helping if the fins are getting worse. 

 

 

I think I am going to move on to Paraguard and heat :(

Edited by QandD

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Well the opaque spots are probably not parasitic - can you move them into a small glass container eith good light and get some updated pictures?

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Well the opaque spots are probably not parasitic - can you move them into a small glass container eith good light and get some updated pictures?

 

They're asleep now, but I will try to take a picture of them in glass tomorrow during their water change. They're not spots so much as opaque thickenings on the edges of Duchess's fins, and increased tatters on Vickie's tail. Currently, Duchess's dorsal fin isn't perky as she rests, but they are not bottom sitting. 

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Just get the pictures when you can. You may go ahead and do a full water change and replace the salt at .3%, then dose the Paraguard as directed. They may look worse before they look better, but I'd expect to see some improvement in their condition by four days. Discontinue all other medication in the meantime, including the meth blue baths. Just salt and Paraguard, with the temp elevated to the mid to high seventies, please.

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Just get the pictures when you can. You may go ahead and do a full water change and replace the salt at .3%, then dose the Paraguard as directed. They may look worse before they look better, but I'd expect to see some improvement in their condition by four days. Discontinue all other medication in the meantime, including the meth blue baths. Just salt and Paraguard, with the temp elevated to the mid to high seventies, please.

 

Hi all,

 

I've taken some pictures of Duchess's tail under my LED lights. It looks worse this morning: full-blown splits and thickenings. Vickie's is ragged in a similar manner, but the light upset them and she kept hiding under Duchess... they are so sweet together. Duchess is lethargic but not bottom sitting and still exhibiting spurting and uncontrolled swimming. No gulping from either fish, though. I wish I weren't so worried. 

 

I will redose Paraguard, salt, and keep the heat at 78 F. I hope these pictures help.

 

IMG_3152_zpsszxlfpou.jpg

 

 

IMG_3175_zpsi8tpszla.jpg

 

There are also poo casts and fuzzy white stuff floating around the tank.

Edited by QandD

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Here is a video of Duchess's behavior after the water change (just Prime, buffer, salt, and ParaGuard as directed). Temperature and pH were matched.  :no: She is now bottom sitting in the corner of the tank. Vickie's behavior is unchanged.

 

Sorry for the autofocus problems.

 

Edited by QandD

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Sorry for the multiple postings, but I'm going to try to chalk this behavior up to a "might get worse before it gets better" thing. I just don't like to see them suffer :( I'll try not to worry too much! Thank you for your patience. 

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Definitely continue with the Paraguard. The fins don't worry me as much as the clamping, bottom sitting, and flashing. Continue with the full Paraguard treatment and let's see if she bounces back. Just like prazi, with a parasite treatment you can get some irritation and discomfort that seems to bother the fish more than the parasite, for a bit. Then a healthy animal usually bounces back.

If she doesn't, I'm going to strongly recommend a longer treatment break after the Paraguard to lower her stress.

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Definitely continue with the Paraguard. The fins don't worry me as much as the clamping, bottom sitting, and flashing. Continue with the full Paraguard treatment and let's see if she bounces back. Just like prazi, with a parasite treatment you can get some irritation and discomfort that seems to bother the fish more than the parasite, for a bit. Then a healthy animal usually bounces back.

If she doesn't, I'm going to strongly recommend a longer treatment break after the Paraguard to lower her stress.

 

Just wanted to update everyone who has been rooting for D&V.

 

They've had I think 3 full days of Paraguard, and Duchess still acts agitated when I put in the new treatment, but is no longer bottom sitting. She is lethargic and clamps her dorsal. I figured out that the air stone may have been bothering her since she isn't feeling as strong as usual, so I managed to clip it to the side of the QT without disrupting the surface agitation. She has been diving and flashing a lot less in the last hour or so as a result. She is twitchy at times.

 

Some good news: the bad parts of Vickie's tail are now turning black. The black parts of her pelvic fin have fallen off and now it's just kind of maimed instead of rotten. She is also a bit clamp-y and less active, so I am definitely thinking that they have some kind of bad parasite. So it's good to know, I hope!

 

I tried to do a gill examination of each fish as per Chelsea's suggestions in her pinned post. I would have used a thumbnail like Helen if I had thumbnails.... nail-biting is a very bad habit, folks! It was hard to see the color since even with my lamp it was dark in there, but everything looked smooth and uniform in color. If I had to guess, I would say that the gills aren't *bright* red but steak-y?  

 

They are both eating like Hoover Hogs. I plan to give them some blood worms today in addition to the Thera-A from this morning to amp up their protein. 

Edited by QandD

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Would you say the gills are reddish brown like betadine or blood, or just not cherry red in color? Raw steak color is fine, but verging on brownish and we may have a problem :)

Thank you for the symptoms update, it would be great if this helped. I'm glad you're seeing improvement and I would expect the stress symptoms to cease once the parasites are gone and the irritation has decreased.

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Would you say the gills are reddish brown like betadine or blood, or just not cherry red in color? Raw steak color is fine, but verging on brownish and we may have a problem :)

Thank you for the symptoms update, it would be great if this helped. I'm glad you're seeing improvement and I would expect the stress symptoms to cease once the parasites are gone and the irritation has decreased.

 

I would say that they looked reddish purple on Vickie for sure. To be honest I'd have to look again on Duchess, but I also think that they were darker on the purpleish side rather than brown.

 

Another update: when I did their water change, I found a green-stained piece of tail fin in the water, so I think the medicine is killing stuff on Duchess, too. She was very agitated before the WC, though, so I tried dosing 2.5 mL of Paraguard (half dosage) and maintaining salinity. She is still acting stressed (totally zoned out with clamped dorsal) but not nearly as much (not as much flashing, no hiding). I hope this is OK. I am wondering if they have a kind of salt-resistant trichodina given the milky opaque spots on Duchess's tail. 

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It's very difficult to diagnose without microscope scrapings but it is certainly possible. Anything bacterial or fungal would have been nailed already. This all sounds normal for treatment behavior - nobody is comfortable or happy, but they're slowly healing.

You're at .3% salt, correct? Where is the temperature?

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Yes, I am a .3% salt and raised the temperature to 78 degrees 4 days ago. They have a large air stone on at full blast that is pinned to a side wall so that the current doesn't exhaust them. Should I add the full dose of Paraguard tomorrow or the remaining half dose tonight?

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No half doses. Please do full doses as directed by the label so we can knock this sucker out faster. They should be just fine. Temp looks good. I'm going to recommend reducing your salt back down to .1% at your next water change and report back to me how they're acting after a day or two. I suspect Duchess may be salt sensitive and that's causing some of her stress symptoms, not the parasite.

ETA - I see what you're saying - you did half the dose with the intent of splitting it up into smaller treatments? Yes, dose the remaining half, but don't bother splitting it up again. I really don't think the Paraguard is the issue at this point.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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No half doses. Please do full doses as directed by the label so we can knock this sucker out faster. They should be just fine. Temp looks good. I'm going to recommend reducing your salt back down to .1% at your next water change and report back to me how they're acting after a day or two. I suspect Duchess may be salt sensitive and that's causing some of her stress symptoms, not the parasite.

ETA - I see what you're saying - you did half the dose with the intent of splitting it up into smaller treatments? Yes, dose the remaining half, but don't bother splitting it up again. I really don't think the Paraguard is the issue at this point.

 

Thank you for all of this advice! I dosed the remaining half dose just now and will reduce them to .1% salt tomorrow during their water change. I'll try not to worry about their behavior so long as they are not having serious breathing problems or prolonged bottom sitting. 

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