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QandD

Mystery, never-ending parasites

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I saw some darting, very pretty fish, I hope you can cure them.

 

In the video from a few days ago? Yes, Duchess has uncontrolled swimming and is jumpy lately, which is partly due to me having to take her out of the tank a lot, I think. She has a long memory for a goldfish! However, her swimming control has improved: she can turn around more easily.

 

I'm not wholly convinced there isn't some kind of additional parasitic issue that may have triggered this bacterial problem, but I am hoping to treat it (if need be) when their antibiotics are over--depending on what mods say. She certainly CANNOT have flukes anymore, at least, unless I am breeding a new species.

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Update: somewhat distressing. 

 

I woke up to Vickie having new and more aggressive/white-looking fin rot on her pelvic fin and a bit on her tail. They are both gulping at the surface fairly frequently, and Duchess fins are the same and her behavior is still erratic--difficulty turning, some diving, some backward swimming. 

 

Parameters this morning: .25 ammonia (re-dosed half a capful of Prime), 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, pH of 8. Their tank temperature is around 70-72 at the very most (I have the AC going all of the time for them). Today they get Furan-2 and no WC. They are eating and pooping a bit better but that's the only real improvement I see. I gave them a meth blue bath yesterday during their 100% water change when I redosed Kanaplex and Furan-2. They tolerated it fairly well.

 

This is a bummer. Suggestions? I am thinking that there must be some other kind of parasitic issue going on. Would Quick Cure be my next option? It makes me sad to see them at a stalemate and then declining. They have another week on the antibiotics to go (or about six days, actually). 

 

Here is a video where you can see their gulping, some diving, and very blurrily, Vickie's fins. It is hard to see how Duchess's fins haven't improved since the incandescent lights don't reflect well on her white body. I hate my phone's video capacity. 

 

 

Here is a not-great picture of the fin: 

 

IMG_2949_zpsbftcbrab.jpg

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Forgive me if I missed it...I read this thread 3 times over and didn't see...but has it been shared what the suspicion is yet?  

 

 

 

QandD...my fingers are crossed for ya hun...I can imagine you're very worried :(

 

I also am curious, i read many D&D threads and dont often see a name placed to the illness. I try to educate myself on different illnesses but find it hard to do so when i have no clue what we are looking at.

 

Thanks!!

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Update: some of the white part of the rot has now fallen off, leaving some fin spines  :no: I'd appreciate any advice as to what I can do to help them. 

Edited by QandD

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That's very likely part of the healing - if the flesh is necrotic it has lost blood flow and the cells are compromised - they have to shed or slough off one way or another. If, on the other hand, it looks like the patches are worsening or spreading we may have to alter the treatment.

Can you provide any updated close ups of the area in question?

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Forgive me if I missed it...I read this thread 3 times over and didn't see...but has it been shared what the suspicion is yet?  

 

 

 

QandD...my fingers are crossed for ya hun...I can imagine you're very worried :(

 

I also am curious, i read many D&D threads and dont often see a name placed to the illness. I try to educate myself on different illnesses but find it hard to do so when i have no clue what we are looking at.

 

Thanks!!

Without a scraping and microscopy it is very hard to diagnose definitively. I suspect Columnaris given the symptoms, but no one on the back end is absolutely sure. Many illnesses present in similar ways and some symptoms are secondary to a primary pathogen, and can make diagnosing even more confusing. The advantage of this treatment is that the Meth Blue, Kanamycin, and Furan-2 cover numerous bases of treatment while being fairly low in toxicity. They also work together synergistically to inhibit what a single medication, alone, might not be enough to combat. It's a broad spectrum solution, but far from the only one. If my suspicions are correct then it is the best treatment. If I am off base and it is something else, this same treatment is still likely to slow or halt the spread of whatever pathogen is at play, even if additional treatment is needed once it is complete.

Make sense?

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That's very likely part of the healing - if the flesh is necrotic it has lost blood flow and the cells are compromised - they have to shed or slough off one way or another. If, on the other hand, it looks like the patches are worsening or spreading we may have to alter the treatment.

Can you provide any updated close ups of the area in question?

 

What concerns me is that there was nothing wrong with Vickie's pelvic fin yesterday: it was totally orange and even without any lesions. Duchess had some slight fraying that led me to make the initial post. 

 

She's all wiggly so it was hard to get a picture, but here's to hoping:

 

IMG_3074_zpskyc5wzm7.jpg

 

IMG_3068_zpsmmffw5ah.jpg

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Let me talk with the mods and get their opinion. Hang in there :)

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Okay, thank you!

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Forgive me if I missed it...I read this thread 3 times over and didn't see...but has it been shared what the suspicion is yet?  

 

 

 

QandD...my fingers are crossed for ya hun...I can imagine you're very worried :(

 

I also am curious, i read many D&D threads and dont often see a name placed to the illness. I try to educate myself on different illnesses but find it hard to do so when i have no clue what we are looking at.

 

Thanks!!

Without a scraping and microscopy it is very hard to diagnose definitively. I suspect Columnaris given the symptoms, but no one on the back end is absolutely sure. Many illnesses present in similar ways and some symptoms are secondary to a primary pathogen, and can make diagnosing even more confusing. The advantage of this treatment is that the Meth Blue, Kanamycin, and Furan-2 cover numerous bases of treatment while being fairly low in toxicity. They also work together synergistically to inhibit what a single medication, alone, might not be enough to combat. It's a broad spectrum solution, but far from the only one. If my suspicions are correct then it is the best treatment. If I am off base and it is something else, this same treatment is still likely to slow or halt the spread of whatever pathogen is at play, even if additional treatment is needed once it is complete.

Make sense?

 

 

It does. Thanks for taling the time to respond!

 

QandD i hope your fishies feel better!

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Update: no new fin rot this morning, and I gave them their 100% WC with more Kanaplex and Furan-2. They are eating and pooping much better. I also tried to check Duchess's gills, and I can't tell if it was the lighting, but they seemed a little darker than normal red toward the inside. It's definitely not ammonia or nitrite poisoning, so just wanted to share the symptom. Since I haven't had the nerve to open her gill plate before, I'm not sure if this is a new symptom or an extant one. Duchess's also has some fin "thickening" on one of her anal fins now.

Edited by QandD

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Sorry for all of the posts, but upon getting home from the gym just now, I caught Duchess bottom-sitting. She stopped when she saw me, but Vickie was somewhat anxiously monitoring her. 

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Let me talk with the mods and get their opinion. Hang in there :)

 

Hi--just wanted to update and say that Duchess is still exhibiting strange swimming: erratic diving and then "backing up," gulping (Vickie also gulps), etc. Their fins look the same and they seem pretty subdued. Should I cease this course of treatment and try something else?

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Ok  I would like to have a refresher post...

 

what is the tap and tank water quality hun....

 

what is there set up they are in now....

 

also photos of fins if they have changed.....

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Ok  I would like to have a refresher post...

 

what is the tap and tank water quality hun....

 

what is there set up they are in now....

 

also photos of fins if they have changed.....

 

Tap water is 0-.25 ppm and QT tank water is at .25 ppm ammonia. They are in the same 10-gallon QT tank I've photographed before with a large airstone. I put on the light only occasionally to look at them while they are eating. However, I am in the room with the tank and have the lights on, so they see me a lot. Fins are the same as when I last posted.

 

Hope this helps!

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Don't stop the course of meds in the middle, the antibiotics need to be finished out. You're at no salt, correct? Raising it to a tha per gallon slowly over the next day or two should help with any possible fin rot issues and won't interact with the other medication in a negative way. I agree with Koko that a summary post will help us assess where you are now.

If you haven't purchased it already, consider Seachem Paraguard before doing something like Quick Cure. It's more gentle and still quite effective - if we end up having parasites to battle that's a great treatment and the next I'd recommend after this concludes.

We are about a week into the kana and furan, correct?

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Don't stop the course of meds in the middle, the antibiotics need to be finished out. You're at no salt, correct? Raising it to a tha per gallon slowly over the next day or two should help with any possible fin rot issues and won't interact with the other medication in a negative way. I agree with Koko that a summary post will help us assess where you are now.

If you haven't purchased it already, consider Seachem Paraguard before doing something like Quick Cure. It's more gentle and still quite effective - if we end up having parasites to battle that's a great treatment and the next I'd recommend after this concludes.

We are about a week into the kana and furan, correct?

 

The kana and furan end on Sunday. I'll order the Paraguard now, but how much salt per gallon should I raise it to?

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1 tablespoon per gallon, unless it is very fine popcorn or pickling salt, and then you'd want 2.25 teaspoons per gallon, instead. You're aiming for a concentration of 3 parts per thousand or .3%

Edited by Arctic Mama

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1 tablespoon per gallon, unless it is very fine popcorn or pickling salt, and then you'd want 2.25 teaspoons per gallon, instead. You're aiming for a concentration of 3 parts per thousand or .3%

 

Update and request for further advice: 

 

I have administered the fish's last dose of antibiotics  and they've been at .3% salinity for 3 days. Their fins are the same (slime patches, frayed, or worn away), pooping is good, but Duchess still behaves oddly. Vickie also now gulps.

 

I received my Paraguard in the mail this evening, and I would like to use it to try to treat them for ectoparasites. I also got Aqua-Prazi in the mail in case PraziPro wasn't working as well, so I would be willing to try a couple of powdered Prazi rounds if you think that would be advisable. Re: powdered Prazi, how do you measure the dose for a 10 gallon QT? The container says 1 tbsp per 500 gallons!!

 

So, I was wondering if anyone could suggest a treatment protocol? The bottle of Paraguard just says to treat them with one capful per 10 gallon until they show signs of improvement. I am also not sure if salt + malachite green is safe.

 

Thanks for any advice!

Edited by QandD

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OK I wanted to make sure... are the in the main tank with the plants and stuff or in a clean QT tank?

 

If you can get a video and photos... I would like to take a closer look....

 

If you can also a Photo or video of the main tank.

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OK I wanted to make sure... are the in the main tank with the plants and stuff or in a clean QT tank?

 

If you can get a video and photos... I would like to take a closer look....

 

If you can also a Photo or video of the main tank.

 

They are in a QT tank. I completely stripped and sterilized their main tank, including ordering new substrate and filter media. There are no plants any longer. I was thinking of starting a fishless cycle in the main tank while my fish are in treatment in the QT. I have been changing their water at least every other day with dosing Prime in between (testing their ammonia, as well) and feeding lightly.

 

Here is a video from this morning. After about a minute into the video I tried to get some closer images of their bodies. I wanted to show the gulping and their behavior in the whole-tank shots. I hope that this is useful, even those the incandescent lighting does not help to show their lesions very well. 

 

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OK I can see orange fishies fins, and thats not good....

 

I cant see the white ones fins... But I can say they seem to be happy...

 

What I would like to suggest is actually Melafix... Im thinking you may have a fin rot going on.... :)

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OK I can see orange fishies fins, and thats not good....

 

I cant see the white ones fins... But I can say they seem to be happy...

 

What I would like to suggest is actually Melafix... Im thinking you may have a fin rot going on.... :)

 

Even with the gulping and Duchess's sometimes-backward swimming? Also, can I use Melafix with salt?

Edited by QandD

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OK I can see orange fishies fins, and thats not good....

 

I cant see the white ones fins... But I can say they seem to be happy...

 

What I would like to suggest is actually Melafix... Im thinking you may have a fin rot going on.... :)

 

Even with the gulping and Duchess's sometimes-backward swimming? Also, can I use Melafix with salt?

 

 

Her fins might be just really irritated and shes trying to itch it... its worth a shot hun....

 

Yes you can do that to gether... Make sure you got that air stone and filter of some sort one...:)

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OK--I dosed Melafix a couple of hours ago, and the fish became very listless, hanging at the top of the tank, and Duchess started gasping (lots of gill movement). This is with a large air stone. 

 

I think she is sensitive to Melafix, so I am going to do a water change to give her a break. Perhaps she doesn't do well with oils? 

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