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QandD

Duchess again--bottom sitting

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* Ammonia Level(Tank) .25-.5 ppm (a little greener than .25)
* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
* Nitrate level(Tank) 0
* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
* Nitrite Level(Tap) 
* Nitrate level(Tap) 0
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
* Water temperature? 76.8F (usually around 72-3F... it's just hot today)
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 29 gallons, 6 or so months
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 AquaClear 70s
* How often do you change the water and how much? Twice a week, 50-75%
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today, partial (10% for detritus)
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 2: 1 fantail 3" body length but fat, 1 juvenile oranda
* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, GoldBuffer, Flourish Comprehensive and Excel
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Repashy Super Green, NLS Thera-A, Omega One blood worms (occasionally), nori or algae scrapings (occasionally)
* Any new fish added to the tank? The juvenile oranda 2 weeks ago
* Any medications added to the tank? .1% salt
* Any behavioral changes? Bottom sitting; surface gulping frequently and then she sometimes splashes and suddenly dives; trying to kind of swim into the filter outpouring?; periodic zoning out and drifting
* What symptoms are being displayed? some mild tail fraying and opaque spots on tail; missing scales from flashing from small accident and fluke treatment 1.5 months ago

*Previous treatments: The salt is for the missing scales and tail problems; a few weeks ago she developed a secondary infection from fluke treatment (she had a heavy infestation, so I did six five-day rounds at .1% salt) and I treated with Kanaplex and Metroplex for 12 and 14 days respectively

Meds available: Metroplex, Kanaplex, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, PraziPro, Antibiotic food (metro), Methylene Blue, Quick Cure, Malachite Green, salt

 

 

Sorry to have to write about Duchess again, but she has been bottom-sitting for three days now. Initially it was only at night, but I've now seen her doing it during the day. I went away for a day or so and came back to one of my AQ filters at a dead stop--the filter media smelled very bad, so I rinsed out everything with tank water, did about a 60% water change, and resumed filtration. The water no longer smells bad, but ammonia has gone from 0 ppm to a little over .25 ppm (I have been checking every day). Otherwise I don't know what else could have changed in the tank. Should I sterilize the filter media or is it too late anyway? 

 

From my previous threads, some of you may know that I was very worried that flukes weren't Duchess's only problem, since she has been gulping at the surface since her Prazi treatment and her tail has not healed. Her scales are also still missing. 

 

I have inserted another air stone to make the surface of the water even more agitated and have not fed them today. Vickie seems fine. 

 

Any ideas? She has only ever bottom-sat when she was sulking through her Prazi treatments and during the first few doses of antibiotics.

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I'm sorry she is still doing poorly! Persistent symptoms in my tank ended up being ectoparasites and the symptoms were similar to Duchess, but the treatments can be harsh.

Let's see what a mod has to say. Hugs to you, I know how frustrating it can be to play symptom whackamole!

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

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Hope Duchess feels better.

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

 

Why don't you try treating the main tank with Prazipro and Metroplex, but NO salt.  Dose 2 measures Metroplex per 10 gallons.  Make sure you have enough Metroplex to dose 7 times(every other day).  These meds won't cause a cycle bump, won't harm your plants and work well together against stubborn flukes. The Metroplex will also help the bottom sitting which is probably due to an internal problem.  

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

 

Why don't you try treating the main tank with Prazipro and Metroplex, but NO salt.  Dose 2 measures Metroplex per 10 gallons.  Make sure you have enough Metroplex to dose 7 times(every other day).  These meds won't cause a cycle bump, won't harm your plants and work well together against stubborn flukes. The Metroplex will also help the bottom sitting which is probably due to an internal problem.  

 

 

Thank you for the advice. I just have a concern: I had treated Duchess with waterborne Metroplex about a month ago and she completed six-rounds of Prazi a couple of months ago. Will the Metroplex be ineffective? It didn't seem to help with her tail last time. 

 

Also, I have just noticed that Vickie's lips seem to be turning white. I am not sure if this a pigmentation thing or something else (she is a juvenile and is pretty active).

Edited by QandD

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I would stop the Excel for a while, too.  I had an Oranda that did the zoning/drifting thing every time I dosed Excel.  Once they are better, you can try the Excel again and carefully observe their behavior.

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

 

Why don't you try treating the main tank with Prazipro and Metroplex, but NO salt.  Dose 2 measures Metroplex per 10 gallons.  Make sure you have enough Metroplex to dose 7 times(every other day).  These meds won't cause a cycle bump, won't harm your plants and work well together against stubborn flukes. The Metroplex will also help the bottom sitting which is probably due to an internal problem.  

 

 

Thank you for the advice. I just have a concern: I had treated Duchess with waterborne Metroplex about a month ago and she completed six-rounds of Prazi a couple of months ago. Will the Metroplex be ineffective? It didn't seem to help with her tail last time. 

 

The Metroplex will prevent internal secondary bacterial infections that may result from the dying flukes releasing their hooks.  It also has some antiparasitic qualities that give the Prazi an extra kick.  There is some data that suggests that salt tends to diminish Prazipro's effectiveness, though we don't have a conclusive answer on this matter.  Essentially, I'm suggesting the Metroplex as a substitute for salt to both boost the Prazi's effectiveness and spare your plants :)

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

 

Why don't you try treating the main tank with Prazipro and Metroplex, but NO salt.  Dose 2 measures Metroplex per 10 gallons.  Make sure you have enough Metroplex to dose 7 times(every other day).  These meds won't cause a cycle bump, won't harm your plants and work well together against stubborn flukes. The Metroplex will also help the bottom sitting which is probably due to an internal problem.  

 

 

Thank you for the advice. I just have a concern: I had treated Duchess with waterborne Metroplex about a month ago and she completed six-rounds of Prazi a couple of months ago. Will the Metroplex be ineffective? It didn't seem to help with her tail last time. 

 

The Metroplex will prevent internal secondary bacterial infections that may result from the dying flukes releasing their hooks.  It also has some antiparasitic qualities that give the Prazi an extra kick.  There is some data that suggests that salt tends to diminish Prazipro's effectiveness, though we don't have a conclusive answer on this matter.  Essentially, I'm suggesting the Metroplex as a substitute for salt to both boost the Prazi's effectiveness and spare your plants :)

 

 

OK--thanks for explaining! I am just sort of dumbstruck that flukes could have survived all of my previous treatment.

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I know, and we can't be sure without a microscope.  Let's just try 2 rounds of Prazi only 4 days apart.

 

Day 1: Prazi/Metro

Day 3: Metro

Day 5: Water Change then Prazi/Metro

Day 6: Let's check in and discuss progress.

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I know, and we can't be sure without a microscope.  Let's just try 2 rounds of Prazi only 4 days apart.

 

Day 1: Prazi/Metro

Day 3: Metro

Day 5: Water Change then Prazi/Metro

Day 6: Let's check in and discuss progress.

 

Will do and thanks agin.

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I'm not a huge fan of using Prazipro with salt because the manufacturer vaguely discourages it.  I use Aqua Prazi powder for QT because you can use it with any level of salt.  I use Prazipro with no salt for maintenance rounds in my main tanks because it's cheaper and easier to use.

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Well, I hope this knocks whatever is bothering Duchess out once and for all! Otherwise I am tempted to turn to something harsher like Quick Cure :(

Edited by QandD

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Well, I hope this knocks whatever is bothering Duchess out once and for all! Otherwise I am tempted to turn to something harsher like Quick Cure :(

Did you ever do a 2-week treatment of 0.3% salt for ectoparasites?

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Well, I hope this knocks whatever is bothering Duchess out once and for all! Otherwise I am tempted to turn to something harsher like Quick Cure :(

Did you ever do a 2-week treatment of 0.3% salt for ectoparasites?

 

 

I don't think I have ever done that for Duchess except when the tank had an outbreak of ich after Hurricane Sandy. I didn't know about quarantining when I got Duchess (she is now six years old and I was very uninformed at that time). I did 2.5 weeks at .3% for Vickie while she was in quarantine in addition to her Prazi rounds. She handled everything very well. Would you recommend that I move Duchess to QT and dose her with .3% to keep the plants from dying? Or would the parasites just turn their attention to Vickie? 

 

Would you like to see Vickie's mouth and/or pictures of Duchess, though D really hates pictures? I could try to take a photo when I do their big water change after work today to get the salt out of the tank.

Edited by QandD

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Let's first try the Metro/Prazi.  If that dosn't work, then I would then try the 0.3% salt in the main tank for both fish.  You can throw the plants in a bucket or QT and isolate them for a couple of weeks with no meds.  The parasites will die without a fish host.

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Let's first try the Metro/Prazi.  If that dosn't work, then I would then try the 0.3% salt in the main tank for both fish.  You can throw the plants in a bucket or QT and isolate them for a couple of weeks with no meds.  The parasites will die without a fish host.

 

Sorry--just one more question! Should I do this Prazi/Metro treatment on Duchess in a QT tank or in the main tank since the flukes might be in the filter still? Sorry if this is a dumb question. 

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Main tank. This should also help the split fins on the other fish.

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How often and how much Excel do you use?  Do you have a QT you can move Duchess into?

 

I dose Excel when I do water changes at about 3-5mL and sometimes every few days if I am not going to do a water change. I've since stopped putting Excel in the tank after the filter stopped (so for about 4 days now). I do have a spare 10 gallon tank I could put Duchess into, but this morning I've noticed that my other fish's tail fin has started to fray slightly as well. If there is something in the main tank, would I have to treat the whole thing (however that would work)? Should I give her a salt dip or up the concentration to .3%? I have plants that might die, but Duchess means more to me than the plants.

 

I haven't fed them now for 2 days in case there was a constipation problem. Duchess has been yawning and surface gulping throughout the morning.

 

Why don't you try treating the main tank with Prazipro and Metroplex, but NO salt.  Dose 2 measures Metroplex per 10 gallons.  Make sure you have enough Metroplex to dose 7 times(every other day).  These meds won't cause a cycle bump, won't harm your plants and work well together against stubborn flukes. The Metroplex will also help the bottom sitting which is probably due to an internal problem.  

 

 

Sorry--one more question. My Metroplex bottle says to dose 1 measure per 10 gallons. So I want to double-dose the antibiotics? 

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I believe it says 1-2 measures per 10 gallons. Use the 2 measures.

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OK--so I did the 100% water change to remove salt, dosed Prazi and double-dosed Metroplex (2 measures per 10 gallon), and Duchess now has a split on her dorsal fin when I was transferring her back into the tank. I didn't net her, but she thrashed around since I didn't want to pour dirty salty water back into the tank. It's not all the way down to her body, but will the Metro help heal this? I am such an idiot. I really don't know how it happened since I've held her lots of times before and never use a net. I never want to remove her from the tank ever again. There is no blood and she is swimming; she is just is clamping the dorsal a bit since I imagine it doesn't feel great. I tried to take a picture but she won't let me see it. 

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OK--so I did the 100% water change to remove salt, dosed Prazi and double-dosed Metroplex (2 measures per 10 gallon), and Duchess now has a split on her dorsal fin when I was transferring her back into the tank. I didn't net her, but she thrashed around since I didn't want to pour dirty salty water back into the tank. It's not all the way down to her body, but will the Metro help heal this? I am such an idiot. I really don't know how it happened since I've held her lots of times before and never use a net. I never want to remove her from the tank ever again. There is no blood and she is swimming; she is just is clamping the dorsal a bit since I imagine it doesn't feel great. I tried to take a picture but she won't let me see it. 

It's okay.  The dorsal will heal fine :)

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I just wanted to post an update that Duchess has developed two pimple things on her dorsal, one at the base of the tear and another just on her fin. I haven't seen her bottom sitting but she is yawning, gulping, hiding, and just generally lethargic. So maybe the problem has been super-flukes after all? She is excited about food here, but here's a video of the fin. 

 

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She's active which is good.  Let's just give the Prazi and Metro time to work :)

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