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King Poseidon

Horror in the pond: extrem tail-rot on koi

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Hi, a long time i haven't posted on the forum and i'd like to post for less sad news.

 

The place:

 

Pond: 4500 litres; filtered and oxygenated (bubblers)

 

Water parameters:

 

Ammonia 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 15

Ph: 7.5

KH: 4

 

I've found 3 days ago one of my koi with an extrem case of tail rot, even the base of the rot is destroyed.

Anal fin is destroyed, pelvic fins are bursted, dorsal fins is dented as pectorals.

The koi is an orange ghost koi, 3 years old. The others pondmate are two  1 year old Kois and several goldies.

This is the only fish to be affected.

 

I've caught this koi with a koi net and put it in quarantine with acriflavine/meth blue (tetra general tonic).

 

This poor fish suffers from buoyancy problems since 2 years (sometimes it gets better, sometimes it is unable to swim and lays on one side at the bottom). Despite this issue, it has ever been in mint condition...but his growth seems to be slowed (should be bigger).

 

 

I've NEVER seen an alive fish (and i'm not a newbie in fish hobby) with such an horrid physical condition. It's heartbreaking, really......The pond where she is, i've built it for her....i've spent hours trying determining what could be his floatability issue.

 


 

 

 

Pics of her, in quarantine tank.

 

 

mini_911039IMG1922.jpg

 

 

mini_855230IMG1924.jpg

 

 

 

 

I don't know if it is possible to save my fish......

Edited by King Poseidon

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I hope she feels baetter.

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Thanks Heidi, me too...His (or her) name is Laverda, as his color is orange like the italian motorcycles Laverda.

Edited by King Poseidon

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Nobody cares?

please be patient. No one here is paid to help out. They do it because they care about the hobby. They do have lives like you and I and can't always help. Since it has been 24 hours I will report the post to get their attention. They may not always see it either. Edited by Mikey

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Sorry to see your fish is having such trouble. Hopefully one of the moderators will be along soon to help. I have never seen anything like that before myself, so I wouldn't be able to offer any help. In the meantime, you might fill out this form, or add anything from it you didn't put in your initial post. :)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/116133-help-request-check-list/

 

Edit: I can't remember if it lists it in the form or not, but if not, you may want to also list all medications you have on hand.

Edited by goldfishgirl82

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King Poseidon, I'm sorry your fish is ill.  Do you have access to any antibiotics?  How big is the QT container?

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Those fins look terrible! Hopefully we can figure out a course of treatment to him soon!

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AM, I thought of you when I saw KP's fish. It's kind of hard to see how extensive the damage is.

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King Poseidon, I'm sorry your fish is ill.  Do you have access to any antibiotics?  How big is the QT container?

Thanks Motherredcap.

 

The QT container is not big enough, 50 litres. I change water every day.

I have only human antibiotics, amoxiciline and norfloxacine.

 

Another pic, you can see the damage are really extensive. For the time he his in QT, i have not witnessed a real progression of the issue. It remains the same.

939512IMG1927.jpg

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Sorry, I was away this weekend.  Both the Acriflavine and the Methylene Blue are antifungals with Acriflavine having some added antiparasitic properties.  I would check your local fish store or online for some Nitrofurazone and/or Kanamycin which are both good for external bacterial infections.  Some brands include API Furan-2, Hikari Bifuran and Seachem Kanaplex.

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Thanks Jared.

 

The later pic shows infection has reached the root of the tail. I even think the root itself is away and know it reaches the body. It would need a sealant.

 

Antibiotics for aquatic pets are not allowed in my country (You have to see a veretinary.......for experience, most of them in my area even don't know what is a koi).

 

I have amoxyciline in stock, human antibiotic. Could it be used?

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Thanks Jared.

 

The later pic shows infection has reached the root of the tail. I even think the root itself is away and know it reaches the body. It would need a sealant.

 

Antibiotics for aquatic pets are not allowed in my country (You have to see a veretinary.......for experience, most of them in my area even don't know what is a koi).

 

I have amoxyciline in stock, human antibiotic. Could it be used?

I have this issue in my area with my rats - they're barely legal, and the vets have almost no experience with them. What I ended up doing was calling up a highly rated exotic vet, explaining my situation and the recommended treatment, and asked if they could write a prescription for what I actually needed. Especially with pictures of the animals in question they were absolutely willing, and providing a resource like Koivet as a source might help you get what you need. Alternately you could contact a company like American Aquarium Products and have some mailed to you, as I'm almost positive they ship Seachem, Hikari, etc medications internationally.

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Sorry to say but I've kept koi for over 20 years and if fungus has made it back that far to the body there is IMO no chance of the tail fin growing back.

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Sorry to say but I've kept koi for over 20 years and if fungus has made it back that far to the body there is IMO no chance of the tail fin growing back.

I would be surprised to see it grow back as well. But aiming for a healed animal with good care and quality of life is totally achievable, I think, if the koi can bounce back.

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I suppose I'm in too minds with that AM, I had a large koi that ended up much like the above. It lived for around 4-5 years like that, laying on the bottom of the pond all day and night and would swim very awkwardly up to get floating pellets each feeding and immediately sink.

If I had a dollar for every time I fed this pond and thought "I should put this fish down" it would be substantial amount. The morning it had died and didn't come up for food was a blessing for both of us I think.

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I suppose I'm in too minds with that AM, I had a large koi that ended up much like the above. It lived for around 4-5 years like that, laying on the bottom of the pond all day and night and would swim very awkwardly up to get floating pellets each feeding and immediately sink.

If I had a dollar for every time I fed this pond and thought "I should put this fish down" it would be substantial amount. The morning it had died and didn't come up for food was a blessing for both of us I think.

Yes, I wouldn't qualify it as good quality of life if it had no motility. I suppose thats probably my line. Mobile, eating, somewhat impeded swimming? Sure. Pretty much stuck to the bottom? Euthanizing might be more kind. I'm glad it's not my decision :(

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I seriously doubt the tail could grow back, it's too much destroyed.

But, if i can stop the infection and allow healing process, i think she could have a "normal" life, at least not really worse than before. As previously said, her swimming is really bad since two years....as if she had already lost strength in her back and in her tail. There was a slight achievment last summer, with an almost normal swimming, but it has not last.

 

Right now, her behaviour in QT is not too bad...but sometimes she lays on one side (anyway, she exhibits this behaviour for 2 years).

She eats but only diving pellets (while she ate floating pellets while in pond).

That's sad...i remember the day she was in "full power, full glory mode", fighting to be the first to eat, intimidating fries (perhaps for fun...or more), a fast and very beautifull fish to see swimming.

Edited by King Poseidon

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Update:

 

Laverda the Koi is still in QT Tank. Even if there is no visual real improvment but no sign of infection, she behaves in a normal way. She seems to be used to this far from perfect space.

There's no more treatment in water but i struggle to maintain water param good. First, ammonia was a problem even with a 120% water change a day (60% in the morning, 60 in the afternoon) (0.2 ppm/L but as the PH is around 7.2 it's not too dangerous).

I've added a filter with a bit of filtration media from another filter + zeolithe. Of course, the filter is not big enough and i have to fight nitrites (again, no big figures but there the liquid test doesn't remain bright yellow and turns very light orange).

 

Just received today propolis stuff from a professional koi products retailer: Liquid Propolis and Powder Propolis.

 

I've gave up the hope to see his tail growing back one day. My goal is now to seal the wound and allow healing tissus growth.

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I'm glad he is doing well, given the circumstances. Keeping those water params in line is very important. Is there ra ason you haven't been trying 100% changes? If you're only changing part of the water volume out ammonia and other waste products will remain, no matter how frequent the partial changes. You're only diluting, not fully removing, the problem.

I have filters that are toast, currently, so I'm somewhat in the same boat. What I do is remove 90% of the water, then refill it about a third of the way, then remove 90% again. This plows me to dilute the remaining ammonia in the 10% of water leftover by a good margin, since dumping the tank or removing the fish is a pain. It's not quite a complete change but way, way closer than if in as just doing partials. I ended up having to water change this way because I was having an issue with increasing nitrates despite frequent changes and a cycled tank. Leaving a little remaining each time was causing a gradual creep on my parameters I couldn't get on top of. That's when I ditched partial water changes for my goldfish and just went all the way. Koi have a similar issue if the system isn't chock full of plant matter. It's a very heavy bioload to try and manage.

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That's a good question Arctic Mama: the reason i don't do 100% water change is the fish himself. Even if she seems to be calm, it's very difficult to catch her and put her in a bucket: it's a true missile and i want to reduce the risk of injury.

But this situation is far from ideal: the QT is not big enough, the water params are challenged....that doesn't help healing.

Tomorrow, i'll give a try to the propolis. I will have to take the fish out of water and apply product.

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I'm wondering if using clove oil to sedate the fish would be a good thing in order for you to apply the product. We recommend clove oil to euthanize a fish, but you can also use it in smaller doses to sedate a fish. I'll see if I can find a a video of Helen sedating her fish with clove oil...

 

Edit: Check out the first video in which Helen sedates her fish: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/112323-leonidis-tumor-removal-31072013-4th-procedure/

Edited by LisaCGold

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I don't have any advice, but wanted to send Laverda some well wishes.  She sounds like a bit of a fireball if she's still giving you trouble when she must be feeling so horribly, and that in and of itself, in my opinion, is a blessing for her possibilities.

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I hope the medication helps your fish to get better. It sounds like you've been through a lot for her. I am sending positive thoughts and healing vibes. 

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I cannot easily catch mine either, that's why I began refilling and draining again. Because it gave me a nearly 100% water change without having to remove my fish :)

Edited by Arctic Mama

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