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Freckles or something sinister?


Ree

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Alright, sit tight.  Let's see what the others who have been helping you with this thread have to say.

 

Thankyou Jared! dnalex and fantailfan1 have been really helpful! and Helen too!

 

He seemed to be improving up until about around 24hours ago, then its all started going down hill again...

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Oh Jared, I forgot to mention, I also have some of this that Helen asked me to get.  We haven't used it yet in the treatment plan.

 

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/OXYMB#.VVYSSOmJjIV

 

Just didn't know if that little snippet of info would make a difference or not...

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Sorry Jared,  I have to try to get some sleep if I can.  Its coming up for 3.30am here and I haven't got any shut eye yet.  Ill check in as soon as I wake up again. 

 

Thanks again for all your help everyone.   I really appreciate the detail you guys have all gone to to help my little pOdge.   I am only sorry my little pOdge is not behaving and showing his appreciation by getting better! 

 

I have even tried to keep him quiet and calm.  His container is translucent, but you can hardly see through it unless he is about an inch or two from the sides, and it has a lid on it.  I haven't had the light on near him even.  I thought that would help him to be less stressed. 

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How many days of Metro and Kana has Podge completed?

 

I Jared, sorry.  I'm awake now.  Did you manage to contact anyone?

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I think Louie should stay in QT for a few more days, but no more meds for now. We will revisit the prazi when both are back in the main tank.

How is Podge?

 

 

Ok Thanks dnalex. 

 

Ill stop all meds for Louie... and salt down to 0?

 

pOdge is about the same at the moment, I have not seen a vast improvement in about two days now.  I'm doing their water change in a half hour or so, so ill have a good look at him and see how his spots and blush and other symptoms are going and report back to you. 

 

pOdge will have been on kanaplex 12 days yesterday.  Should I keep him on it a little longer?

 

 

 

ok, Bad news.

 

I've just checked on pOdge and it looks like he is getting worse again.  His blush is about the same, but the spots are a lot more this afternoon.  He is more lethargic again, and he is still clamping his dorsal.  His gills are dark plum still.  He is not yawning as much, or surface gulping as much, but that might be due to adding another filter to his tank? He did eat his dinner, but not as much as he normally would have. a day or so ago, and was doing more spitting out than actual eating.  They had the NLS algae gel for dinner again tonight, and the chlorella flakes for breakfast this morning.

 

I am just trying to upload some photos.  Our internet is slow tonight, so ill add them in a min or two.

 

Todays doses -

 

prior to WC parameters still less than 0.05ppm ammonia, nitrites 0ppm, nitrates 0ppm, ph8.3, water temp 18degrees Celsius.  Again everything washed and rinsed well.

 

pOdge - 40L - 

0 prazi tablets

1 200 metro

2 measures kanaplex

2tsp Epsom salts

Louie - 13L - 

0 prazi tablet

0tsp rock salt - 0%

 

So am I dealing with septicaemia? If it is not responding to the antibiotics, at what point would it be better for him to put him down?  I would really hate to do that, but I am scared he wont make it, and I would hate to prolong his agony further if that is what I am doing.  Just a thought.  If there is a chance he will recover I will keep treating him though.  I do love him and want what is best for him, not what is best for me. 

 

 

pOdge is still the same as above with the added symptom of being skittish and hiding today.  A little more bottom sitting than yesterday.  I was going to take more photos tonight, but he seemed stressed and just wanted to hide, so I will take more photos tomorrow morning.  Can you please check the last lot of photos I posted yesterday if that helps at all?

 

 

Todays doses -

 

parameters tonight are ammonia less than 0.05ppm, nitrites 0ppm, nitrates 0ppm, ph8.3, water temp 18degrees Celsius.  I have dosed with prime and will do a 100% WC again tomorrow morning early. 

 

pOdge - 40L - 

0 prazi tablets

1 200 metro

2 measures kanaplex

2tsp Epsom salts

Louie - 13L - 

0 prazi tablet

0tsp rock salt - 0%

 

 

So am I dealing with septicaemia? If it is not responding to the antibiotics, at what point would it be better for him to put him down?  I really love this little guy and want to do all I can for him, but not at the cost of his happiness/comfort/health.

 

Can someone please advise on further treatment or euthanasia?  Thankyou, your input is appreciated as I don't know what else to do for him. 

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Okay, I am going to jump in here.  Please catch me up.  You have treated Podge with Epsom Salt, Metro and Kana for external spots and bloating, correct.  Please list any other symptoms and/or meds that have been used.  Based on your answers, we may try the Oxymav B.  

 

I will be teaching from 9:30-1:00 today, but I will try to check this during my break or after 1:00. 

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Ok, Just to keep the mods updated.  Antibiotics not arrived yet, but they are not expected till tomorrow (Wednesday) through to Friday.  I have 10 Metronidazole tablets, and Oxytetracycline hydrochloride 10g/Kg (Oxymav B http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/OXYMB#.VUin4emJjIV ) coming in the mail.

 

My lovely hubby helped me take some photos tonight to show his progress.  Please note I am holding him very very gently, he still has plenty of wiggle room in my hands, but he was too lethargic to do much wiggling.

 

He seems to be getting worse.

 

Still have pOdge on kanaplex, prazi and down to 0.1% salt now.  Also has prime in tank.

 

Temp at 26 degrees Celsius... should I drop it now?

 

Tank water:

 

Ammonia 0ppm Keeping a close eye on this

 

Nitrite 0ppm

 

Nitrate 0ppm

 

Tapwater:

 

Ammonia 0ppm Keeping a close eye on this

 

Nitrite 0ppm

 

Nitrate 0ppm

 

I am doing 100% water changes every 24hours, rinsing everything in chlorinated tap water (including pulling the filter apart and rinsing every day), then again in primed water, then filling up priming and medicating the tank, then adding the pOdge back by hand to eliminate extra contaminated water in the tank.

 

pOdge and Louie are being fed in their separate holding bowls of an evening with homemade gell food while I clean their tanks to eliminate as much waste in their tank water as possible.  They are having NitriDiet Chlorella Flakes for breakfast in their separate QT tanks.

 

Tonight pOdges water was cloudier than usual.  Nothing else has changed so don't know what caused this.  Maybe he didn't eat as much of his flakes as he usually does?  He didn't seem as interested this morning.  He ate some dinner, but not as much as usual.  I gave him flakes for dinner soaked in some kanaplex water. 

 

He seems slimier tonight, esp under his belly, and his belly/chest are all soft, it was firm a couple of days ago.  Should I weigh him again to see if he is loosing weight? or is the softness caused by something else?

 

His spots/veins have spread across his tummy, chest, and each side of his back rump and near his bottom.  There is a blush (almost bruise look) across his back as well as the spots.  I don't know if this came out in the photos.

 

He has a spot on his rump where there is a scale missing.  It is hard to see in the photo.  This was not missing this morning.  There are definite veins showing in the area, again I don't know if it is easy to see on the photo.

 

He has slight pine-coning across his rump, one side worse than the other.

 

He is lethargic, and just floats or drifts might be a better word around the tank, the littlest amount of movement he can get away with.  He is not interested in Louie who is in the QT tank beside him. 

 

He is yawning about once every 5 min, sometimes more often.  He is gulping at the surface every little while, but not staying at the surface.  He is occasionally bottom sitting.

 

His gills look darker than usual. 

 

Inside his mouth is darker than usual.

 

He is fin clamping most of the time with his dorsal fin (top fin?)

 

Here are some photos:

 

pOdges eyes and face

P1050739%202_zpseutbycfo.jpg

 

gill colour, chest and tummy spots and veins (sorry this photo is not very clear, but it is the best I could take through the glass bowl)

P1050714%202_zpsl01gybz1.jpg

 

blush across back and pinspots (this area was pure white), showing darker in mouth

P1050742%202_zpsz6btvpwb.jpg

 

pinspots on tummy

P1050733%202_zpsdziscafd.jpg

 

pinspots on left rump

P1050731%202_zps0rrbkx3c.jpg

 

pinspots on right rump

P1050723%202_zpsytsazkw1.jpg

 

scale gone, slight pine-coning on left rump

P1050711%202_zpsvpznaizh.jpg

 

right rump pine-coning in this area, worse than the left side.

P1050707%202_zpswf2qqxyd.jpg

 

Please let me know if I should change the treatment prior to receiving the antibiotics in the post.

 

Thanks so much!

 

This is probably the post with the most comprehensive list of his symptoms.

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Okay, I am going to jump in here. Please catch me up. You have treated Podge with Epsom Salt, Metro and Kana for external spots and bloating, correct. Please list any other symptoms and/or meds that have been used. Based on your answers, we may try the Oxymav B.

I will be teaching from 9:30-1:00 today, but I will try to check this during my break or after 1:00.

Jared, I think this is as I feared, and is costia. I'm traveling most of the day today, but see if you can get in touch with Helen, and try to reconstruct the Aussie replacement for Metro-Meds. I don't think the fish will have much of an appetite, and so it may have to be a combo of meds in the water.

Good luck, Ree, and I'm sorry. Costia is not easy to treat, and almost impossible in Australia. :(

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Ive just tried to summarise for you to save some time.

 

He is at the moment:

 

  • dorsal clamping
  • listless
  • lethargic
  • attempting to eat, then spitting out most of his food (NLS algae gel or Nutridiet Chlorella flakes)
  • spots are becoming worse
  • hiding/skittish
  • bloating (not so bad since ive changed his flake food to the nutridiet food)
  • pineconing slightly despite Epsom salts (2teaspoons for his 40L)
  • loosing weight I think (he doesn't seem as big as he was two weeks ago, I'll weigh him tomorrow to be sure)
  • he has a blush (almost bruise look) across his back and down his sides, I this may have extended a little around his tummy in the last lot of photos I took.
  • spot on his rump where there is a scale missing which happended on the 5th May, this has no ulcerated that I can see
  • yawning, but not so much as initially, it is now only every 15 min or so instead of every 5
  • surface gulping, about as often as he is yawning
  • bottom sitting more than half the time I would estimate
  • gills dark plumish colour 
  • Inside his mouth is darker than usual

Ill add any more if I think of them.

 

Thankyou so much for your help Jared.  I know you are busy.  I just don't know what else to do.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I am going to jump in here. Please catch me up. You have treated Podge with Epsom Salt, Metro and Kana for external spots and bloating, correct. Please list any other symptoms and/or meds that have been used. Based on your answers, we may try the Oxymav B.

I will be teaching from 9:30-1:00 today, but I will try to check this during my break or after 1:00.


Jared, I think this is as I feared, and is costia. I'm traveling most of the day today, but see if you can get in touch with Helen, and try to reconstruct the Aussie replacement for Metro-Meds. I don't think the fish will have much of an appetite, and so it may have to be a combo of meds in the water.

Good luck, Ree, and I'm sorry. Costia is not easy to treat, and almost impossible in Australia. :(

 

 

if it is costia, would I be better off just putting him down?  I don't want to put him through more if there is little chance of his surviving.  Its such a horrid decision to have to make, but I want what is best for him.

 

If its costia too... how will that affect my other tanks etc

 

Thanks again for your help to dnalex, it is very much appreciated.

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Ok, I just did some quick reading and I'll add here what I found out, please tell me if it is wrong...

 

Theres the Kokos Costia page, which is right...

 

Then I found this which also said:

 

"What is costia?

Costia is a tiny parasite that may live on your goldfish and within the water of the tank for some time before it causes any problems.

 

 

 

The most common time of year for outbreaks of costia infection to occur is during the springtime, but your fish may have been carrying the parasites for some months before they become apparent. ....

 

Costia can also survive out of water for a time, so it is vital to sterilize any tank equipment that you use on multiple tanks in between using it in different bodies of water."

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-costia/

 

That being the case, I am not sure I can be certain that the main tank and the tropical tank arnt infected.  I would have been using the same equipment initially to fill the 220L as well as the tropical tank.  I didn't realise about cross contamination at the time.  It was only when pOdge and Louie started getting sick in QT a day or so after I bought them that I realised about cross contamination. 

 

Since then I have used separate equipment on all the tanks, but do you think it would be the wisest course to strip everything down and sterilise everything and start again? 

 

and what about Louie?  She could be carrying the costia. 

 

I have had trouble with my tropical the last few days to with similar symptoms to the goldfish.  I have lost 3 guppies, and now have two tetras dropsying, and they all look like they are labouring for breath.  Of the remaining guppys one is flasing a lot.  They are undergoing their 2nd round of prazi and salt at 0.3% for salt treatment.  I didn't connect the two lots of symptoms till now. Their water parameters are 0ammonia/0nitrite/2nitrate.  They are in a cycled tank.

 

I have been super carefull, and washed my hands between tanks with soap (ph neutral).... but it might not have been enough?

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This is something else I found:

 

"Management

I. necator is an important parasite of young salmonids and cyprinids in hatcheries and various treatments including, but not restricted to, formalin, dilute acetic acid, malachite green, copper sulphate, pyridylmercuric acetate, quicklime, bithional and methylene blue can be used to treat infected fish and are effective at killing the parasites. However, the parasites are very temperature sensitive and die above 30˚C so raising the water temperature just above this threshold for a few days at a time can successfully eliminate the parasite. ref."

 

http://species.freshwaterlife.org/index/fish-parasites/Sarcomastigophora/ichthyobodo-necator.html

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Sorry, cant switch off the panic or the brain... I found this...

 

http://www.aceforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=17541

 

Apparently the last line of defence it seems is the metronidazole.  I have been using this for Metro 10 days today at one 200(I don't know what the unit is) tablet to 10 gal or 40L. 

 

I'm going to try to get some sleep... try... :undecided:  :scared  :krazy:  :cry1

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I think we are up against the wall, here and may need to resort to Formalin.  The water borne Metro has not worked and I'm not sure we have time to get oral Metro going before the disease kills Podge.  So I think your options are:

 

1) Making a food with Metronidazole and Oxymav-B and hoping the Podge eats it and it works in time (or force feeding him).

 

2) Using a Formalin based medicine like Quick Cure.  Formalin is recommended for severe parasitic infections when salt, etc. fails but is very harsh.

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Of note! Harder water with a higher pH is a lot safer with the Quick Cure than softer water at lower pH. The Formalin is much less toxic with hard, buffered water (as I discovered in begging guru advice for my own issues). Keep the water well buffered and it should hell it be easier on Podge. But NO SALT if you do Quick Cure, or he will be belly up.

I'll place you back in the capable hands of Alex and Jared. Just thought you might benefit from my recent experiences with the stuff ;)

Edited by Arctic Mama
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I think we are up against the wall, here and may need to resort to Formalin.  The water borne Metro has not worked and I'm not sure we have time to get oral Metro going before the disease kills Podge.  So I think your options are:

 

1) Making a food with Metronidazole and Oxymav-B and hoping the Podge eats it and it works in time (or force feeding him).

 

2) Using a Formalin based medicine like Quick Cure.  Formalin is recommended for severe parasitic infections when salt, etc. fails but is very harsh.

 

So there is a good chance he wont make it through either treatment.   Does he have internal organ damage at this stage through possible bacterial infection/oxygen deprivation?  It would take me at least 3 days to be able to get the formalin, even by express post.

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Of note! Harder water with a higher pH is a lot safer with the Quick Cure than softer water at lower pH. The Formalin is much less toxic with hard, buffered water (as I discovered in begging guru advice for my own issues). Keep the water well buffered and it should hell it be easier on Podge. But NO SALT if you do Quick Cure, or he will be belly up.

I'll place you back in the capable hands of Alex and Jared. Just thought you might benefit from my recent experiences with the stuff ;)

 

Thankyou so much Arctic Mama, I am way out of my depth here.  :cry   I have a couple of questions for you if you have any insight it would be so greatly appreciated. 

 

My kh is normally 125 to 130 (7 to 7.5 drops API test) and my gh is normally 170-179 (9.5 to 10 drops API test).  The ph sits stable between 8.1 to 8.3.  Would I need a butter? edit: buffer... buffer!  DOH!

 

How much smell/fumes come off the formalin?  I am asthmatic, and fumes are one of my asthma triggers. 

Edited by Ree
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I think we are up against the wall, here and may need to resort to Formalin.  The water borne Metro has not worked and I'm not sure we have time to get oral Metro going before the disease kills Podge.  So I think your options are:

 

1) Making a food with Metronidazole and Oxymav-B and hoping the Podge eats it and it works in time (or force feeding him).

 

2) Using a Formalin based medicine like Quick Cure.  Formalin is recommended for severe parasitic infections when salt, etc. fails but is very harsh.

 

So there is a good chance he wont make it through either treatment.   Does he have internal organ damage at this stage through possible bacterial infection/oxygen deprivation?  It would take me at least 3 days to be able to get the formalin, even by express post.

 

 

Ok, Just looked in my supplies and found some blue planet rapid white spot remedy... it is 37mg/ml formaldehyde and 0.32mg/ml malachite green.  I only have the 50ml bottle.    I only have three metro tablets left, so if the formaldehyde is the better option out of the two I will give it a go if I can handle the fumes. 

 

Can you please advise how to dose the formaldehyde for costia? 

 

Also, will I need to dose all the others too?

 

Does it destroy the cycle?

 

Could I back it up with medicated food?  or is the combination going to kill his liver/kidneys?  He is already dropsied.

Edited by Ree
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Of note! Harder water with a higher pH is a lot safer with the Quick Cure than softer water at lower pH. The Formalin is much less toxic with hard, buffered water (as I discovered in begging guru advice for my own issues). Keep the water well buffered and it should hell it be easier on Podge. But NO SALT if you do Quick Cure, or he will be belly up.

I'll place you back in the capable hands of Alex and Jared. Just thought you might benefit from my recent experiences with the stuff ;)

Thankyou so much Arctic Mama, I am way out of my depth here. :cry I have a couple of questions for you if you have any insight it would be so greatly appreciated.

My kh is normally 125 to 130 (7 to 7.5 drops API test) and my gh is normally 170-179 (9.5 to 10 drops API test). The ph sits stable between 8.1 to 8.3. Would I need a butter? edit: buffer... buffer! DOH!

How much smell/fumes come off the formalin? I am asthmatic, and fumes are one of my asthma triggers.

Keep up whatever you're doing on those tap parameters. Those are awesome for goldfish and unless you're seeing a really unstable ph for some reason, whatever has you at that current set of parameters is great. I'm not positive about the Blue Planet tabs and nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria, mine is supposed to be safe for the cycle but it hasn't been. I'd just assume it will nuke your filter and be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't.

I haven't noticed any smells off the formalin. It's very dilute in the tank and even the bottle isn't particularly strong. Removing nail polish or cleaning a bathroom is way, way more in the way of fumes than dosing a fish. I'd think you'd be okay but maybe have a rescue inhaler on hand just in case?

I'm not positive if Epsom salts react to formalin, but I'd guess so. Anyone else know for certain?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Let's try the Blue Planet Rapid White Spot remedy (Formalin/Malachite Green).  But, before you do:

 

1) What temp is the tank at?

 

2) Do you have an airstone in the tank or can you add one?

 

3) What meds are in the tank right now?

 

4) Is there an expiration date on the bottle?

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