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Flashing or just clumsy?


QandD

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Hi all, 

 

First, the preliminaries: 
 

Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) .25ppm (NOTE: these levels were all taken before the WC I did today)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 0 ppm (currently understocked and it's been this way for a while)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5-7.6 pH
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.0 pH
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master kit drops
      • * Water temperature? 70-71 F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 29 gallons, 1 year since last move, but 6 years total
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 AquaClear 70's with ceramic media (provided by AQ) and Fluval bio-rings (in the other one), floss pad, and provided sponge thing (these have been running for about 5-6 months)
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 60-70% every 4-5 days; larger percentage when I was treating for flukes (according to Koko's 6-round schedule)
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today, around 70% 
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 ribbontail, 6 years old, about 2.5-3 inches but very egg-shaped
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, Flourish comprehensive and excel, GoldBuffer
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? 2x daily: NLS Thera-A and the goldfish-specific ones (alternating days and all pre-soaked); Repashy Super Green; sometimes nori or spirulina, though with the Repashy, less so lately
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No, but her tankmate died on March 7, 2015, which is why I started treating for flukes
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Not yet
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. I did a salt-dip a few days ago due to her tail and the missing scales--she lasted less than a minute in the bath and the whole experience was terrifying for me; after her tankmate died and I came to Koko's, I did 6 rounds of fluke treatment (PraziPro and .1% salt) according to Koko's recommendations--as a previous thread shows, she reacted very strongly so I think she must have had a lot of flukes; I tried Melafix for her tail previous to the fluke treatment but it seemed to make it hard for her to breathe so I stopped after a couple of days; 1 year ago I treated the fish for columnaris with MetroMeds and Maracyn-1 and -2 (BB was killed off); 3 years ago I treated them for Ich with salt and high temps; I have given Methylene Blue baths before when the BB died a year ago and I was worried about Nitrite sickness, and a couple months ago since my current fish has excess slimecoat on her tail that will not go away--it did not turn blue so I don't think it is a fungus, but of course I am not an ichthyologist
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Excess slimecoat on tail and mild fraying; 6 missing scales from flashing during Prazi; she is a white fish who seemed to keep getting more sparkly (?) over time, but there are no dots on her fins whatsoever
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?  jumpier and yet lower energy than usual; sometimes she swims sideways along the bottom of the tank, but I can't tell if she just has hard time turning around; periodic yawning; periodically "biting" the surface of the water without prolonged gasping, though; some stationary floating when she thinks she is alone--just lower energy than pre-Queenie's death and Prazi treatment

 

Hi all, I want to say first of all that it's hard to get a video of her doing all of these things since I'd have to essentially have a nanny-cam on her. 

I wanted to ask about this weird sideways swimming that I see her periodically doing. She doesn't scratch against objects in the tank, but I notice that when she seems to want to turn around quickly she'll swim sideways along the sand substrate. Her tail still will not heal despite vigilant water changes and the .1% salt concentration during Prazi treatment. She also just seems kind of bummed out, and the surface biting concerns me. I don't know if she is melancholy because she is alone, or because she is not feeling well. She eats, but the weird swimming and non-healing fins/scales also concern me. 

I am wondering if she could have another kind of parasite that caused flashing, etc. Do you think I should try a .3% salt concentration in case it's some other kind of topical parasite? It would kill some of my plants, which is why I haven't done it so far, but if it's necessary Duchess > plants. 

 

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A video of the behavior would be very helpful though I definitely understand how hard it can be to catch them in the act. :P

 

If it's deemed that a .3 salting is necessary, you can always either remove the fish (or the plants), and place one of them in a separate tank. 

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Update: 

 

She is definitely flashing and now gasping at the surface with greater frequency. On one of her sides she is missing at least 8-9 scales and there are scales missing on the other side, too. I've been treating with .3% salt concentration since Sunday and am now raising the temperature to 80 degrees. She has 2 AQ 70s and an airstone in a 29-gallon tank, so I don't think she is lacking any oxygen unless her gills are damaged or irritated. What can I do to help her breathe better? 

 

Would the salt increase flashing? I saw that I think Helen advised someone else that parasitic treatments get worse before they get better, but how long should that take (on average) so I know to try something else?  I am trying to remove obstructions from the tank in the meantime and I guess will have to sterilize then if they ever go back in (and sterilize the QT again--no new fish for me). My last WC was on Wednesday (85%) with salt re-dosed. If this doesn't work, what medicines would I have to use? PP scares me a little but at this point I will do most anything to make this stop.

 

Tank parameters (regular water parameters are the same as usual) and additives:

Ammonia: .25 ppm 

Nitrite: 0 ppm

Nitrate: 0-5 ppm
pH: 8.2

Temperature: 76 F and climbing to 80 F over the next few hours

 

Additives: Prime, .3% Morton's Pickling and Canning Salt (having converted from 1 tsp API large grain to .75 tsp in my calculations), GoldBuffer; I have stopped dosing water column fertilizers. 

Odd behaviors: gasping at surface A LOT, flashing, 

Symptoms: many missing scales, white opaque smile coat and tatters on her tail still present

 

Here is a video, although since she is excited to see me she doesn't gasp nearly as much. I've since removed the driftwood and java fern.

 

Here are some photos, but she really refuses to let me get a decent photo of her missing scales. You can also see her tail. 

 

IMG_25241_zpsmoc4ecit.jpg

 

 

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She is beautiful! Hopefully the experts can get to the bottom of what ails her. As for flukes, I've found if I don't treat every 4-6 months precautionarily I get some flashing. That's just me, of course, and not meant to be advice. But even with great tank hygiene it's not something ove been able to escape.

Good for you for understocking your tank, too :)

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Personally I don't see anything in that video that concerns me.  She went towards the top several times but only gulped once.  She's just been prazied and you're treating with 0.3% salt right now.  I have one fish that gulps.  But she eats fine and is active.  I prazi (one round, no salt) every 4 months or so and call it good.   :idont

 

Are you talking about the part of her tail that isn't as "clear"/ is more white than the surrounding area?  :idont

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Thanks for your replies.

 

She has been gulping significantly more than in the video; somehow, she knows when I have the magic square of recording and then dances for attention rather than just behaving normally. After I stopped filming her she literally went to the top of the tank to gulp at least 3 times in 15 minutes. Little stinker!

 

I finished six rounds of Prazi on April 2 and posted in a different thread about the degree to which it had affected her (AKA, she did NOT like it for at least 4 rounds and I was worried about her). 

Re: her tail, yes, I am talking about the opaque part. In person, it is more ragged and not just a color variation. I wish I could get better pictures but she is very fast. I suppose I could try to catch her but she's good at evading me in that sense, too. If I really need to catch her to take pictures I can try to do that, though.

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Another update: she is still gasping and yawning, but now she is periodically clamping her fins and I caught her bottom sitting. She never clamps her dorsal fins, so I am very concerned. 

 

Here is a picture of one side of her missing scales--the black dot on her gill cover is some floating sand and not actually on her gill cover.

20150502_164507_zpspyb9xgpf.jpg
 

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Caught her doing the bottom sitting I was talking about: 

20150502_180657_zps6w2story.jpg

 

Her water has been also smelling different in the past couple of weeks than it had before. Like, I don't know, pond-y or something? Not quite like rotten fish but like a fish store? There is a lot of green hair algae growing in the tank, though, which is fairly new, so perhaps that is related?

 

Sorry for all the questions but I am really getting concerned about her. 

Edited by QandD
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Yes, it is food colored and not floating (she eats NLS Thera-A and goldfish blend, but mostly Thera-A lately for its garlic and Repashy Super Green; I give her nori once per week and she likes wall-algae). She is bottom sitting now though :(

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I have Metroplex and Kanaplex, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, Maracyn 1 and 2 (might not be good anymore, though, since they are from last year). Food that has metro in it. 

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Update: Changed out about 50% of her water last night and redosed salt to .3%. She went to the bottom and sat for a lot of the night behind the dwarf sagittaria. I'm glad she has a little favorite spot to hide at least. Today she was hungry and ate; her dorsal is still now perpetually clamped (UGH), but I haven't seen surface gasping or as much yawning. She has been hovering a lot, though and generally weird. Her tail continues to look ratty. No redness on her body or fins. 

After shooting this video I decided to do a double dose of Prazi to see if there are still some cursed flukes in the tank.  

 

She kind of floats or drifts while clamped, and then snaps out of it, and then hovers again.

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Not to be a pain, but if I were to start dosing Metroplex and Kanaplex, would I do it at the same time? Would I have to QT her? And could I maintain the .3% salt solution? Seachem claims that M & K won't harm the biological filter but I am suspicious. Alternatively, should I feed her food medicated with metro in case there are internal parasites, etc.? 

I promise to stop asking questions soon!

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What medicated food do you have?

 

If you dose M and K, you do them at the same time.  You don't have to QT her since she's the only fish in there but I would keep an eye on your water parameters to make sure they don't cause a cycle bump.  If you're using M and K, you don't need any salt but you can continue with the prazi.  The salt is to help prevent infection but with antibiotics in the water you don't need the salt . . .

 

When I talk about clamping, I am talking about the pelvic fins, not the dorsal.  Her pelvic fins are relaxed in the video . . . .

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What medicated food do you have?

 

If you dose M and K, you do them at the same time.  You don't have to QT her since she's the only fish in there but I would keep an eye on your water parameters to make sure they don't cause a cycle bump.  If you're using M and K, you don't need any salt but you can continue with the prazi.  The salt is to help prevent infection but with antibiotics in the water you don't need the salt . . .

 

When I talk about clamping, I am talking about the pelvic fins, not the dorsal.  Her pelvic fins are relaxed in the video . . . .

 

Ah, I see--thanks for the clarification about clamping! I've only seen her clamp that way when she lies on the bottom.

 

The food I have is Peabody's Medicated Flakes--Metronidazole. I fed her some today (one flake at a time like the directions say, since apparently they dissolve quickly and she liked them). I haven't seen her sitting yet tonight so perhaps water column M&K will  also help. If it sounds like a good idea to everyone, tomorrow I'll start M&K after doing a big water change to reduce the salt in the tank.  I had finished six rounds of Prazi on April 7--do you think it's safe to do another couple of rounds? I also have malachite green coming in the mail in case of other parasites, but I don't want to mix medications unsafely.

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Update: I did/am doing a 95% water change, dosing M&K and Prazi. However, in D's box while she water for her water to be fixed, I noticed that her lower left abdomen looked different from the other side, like scales were a little raised. She ate the metro food this morning happily and did not bottom sit last night, but I am a little concerned. I dosed 1 tsp/5 gal just in case--this won't hurt her, will it? 

 

Here is a photo--apologies for quality but you see how one side of her is completely smooth. If this is something I guess she definitely has a bacterial infection.

 

20150504_112605_zps207mg16p.jpg

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It's hard to tell from the pic but if it is raised you're already treating her anyway. And I wouldn't treat with M and K in the water AND feed metro food. You're overdosing.

You dosed what set 1 tsp per 5 gallons?

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It's hard to tell from the pic but if it is raised you're already treating her anyway. And I wouldn't treat with M and K in the water AND feed metro food. You're overdosing.

You dosed what set 1 tsp per 5 gallons?

Oh, sorry--Epsom salt. I read other threads about raised scales.

 

I will stop feeding her the metro food and stick to Repashy and Thera-A like usual.

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Update: 

 

Duchess is much more active with less dorsal clamping, so I think she is tolerating her first dose of metro- and kanaplex very well. Her scales are also all very smooth and flat now. 

 

Her tail, however, has deteriorated overnight. Before, there was the weird thickened/white spot on one piece of her tail that was there for a very long time. Now the edges of other parts of her tail have frayed. I've read on this forum that kanaplex can help with this kind of fin rot, but it alarms me that the whitening/fraying has spread to her other tail fin lobes (? lacking terminology) so quickly. I had taken out the salt in her tank, but should I put it back in? That is the only change from yesterday to today that I can think of. Would it be advisable to swab her tail with hydrogen peroxide? Malachite green came in the mail today, but perhaps a bath in that would be too strong? 

 

I apologize for the photo quality--she is very fast--but you can see the fraying. It looks much worse in person with much more obvious thickened white patches: 

20150505_123224_zpssl283osp.jpg

 

My parameters are good today--especially after the 90-95% water change yesterday!--and the filters seem to be managing OK so far: 

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm

Nitrate: 0 ppm

pH: 8
Salinity: epsoms at 1sp/5 gallons

Additives: Prime, GoldBuffer, Flourish and Excel

Medicine: Metroplex, Kanaplex, another dose of Prazi, although I don't know how flukes could have survived 6 rounds of Koko's fluke protocol. Superflukes?

 

Available additional medicines: Melafix, PP (powder--I would need help with calculating a proper bath or paste dosage), methylene blue, malachite green, various other antibiotics, epsom salts, aquarium salt

 

Thank you from Duchess and I for your help so far! 

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Well I don't know about Duchess, but when we were dealing with symptoms after a gazillion prazi AND salt rounds it turned out to be salt resistant protozoans of some sort. Those aren't the typical malady we see in here but it does happens. Much more often flukes pop back up or water quality issues are at hand, precipitating gill irritation or opportunistic pathogens and infections.

Sometimes our pets get worse before they get better (that was the story in my tanks yesterday!) but the advice you have been given is solid and hopefully her fins will be on the mend, soon.

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Well I don't know about Duchess, but when we were dealing with symptoms after a gazillion prazi AND salt rounds it turned out to be salt resistant protozoans of some sort. Those aren't the typical malady we see in here but it does happens. Much more often flukes pop back up or water quality issues are at hand, precipitating gill irritation or opportunistic pathogens and infections.

Sometimes our pets get worse before they get better (that was the story in my tanks yesterday!) but the advice you have been given is solid and hopefully her fins will be on the mend, soon.

 

Thanks, I hope so, too! And I have no doubt about the quality of advice I have received here: I am just wondering if I should salt at .3% for a longer period of time in case the parasites are not salt resistant and to arrest the spread of the fin rot. Otherwise I might swab her with H2O2 if they deteriorate further. 

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