How to do Ich and prazi treatment with 100% water changes daily?

[Ree 867]

Hi,

 

I have a question.   I am QTing my two fish pOdge and Louie.  Louie had ich on him when I got him, and he was in the bag with pOdge from the pet shop so I am QTing them together.  I have added the info from the d&d thread I just made for pOdges eye. 

 

It seems her eye is ok, but due to my tank being so small, it has been recommended I do 100% daily water changes, which I am more than happy to do.  I cannot get a bigger QT tank at the moment and am keeping a very close eye on water parameters and their health. 

 

I have just started day 5 treatment for ich:

The QT tank was a 12L on day one, and upgraded to a 19L on day two with 100% WC.  We have just finished day 4.  Did a 50% water change yesterday vacuuming the bottom of the tank, and 100% today removing and replacing filter floss.

I increased the tank temp to from 22-26deg celcius over the first 36hr.

Commenced salt treatment starting at 0.1% 5hrs after they were in the tank, increasing to 0.2% 12hrs later, and 0.3% 24hrs later again. No Ich spots have been seen for 2 days.

 

I therefore have at least 7 more days of 0.3% salt to get through, and I also need to prazi.

 

I have Blue Planet Fluke/Tapeworm Tablets 100 (Praziquantel) as I could not get the prazi recommended.  Each tablet contains 100mg of Praziquantel.

 

My questions are;

I have noticed that the recommendations for prazi treatment indicate WC (>50%) only on certain days.  I need to do 100% WC daily, so how will this affect my treatment schedule?

Do I keep the 0.3% salt up for the whole 30 days? or should it be less for the tablets I have?

 

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/105076-schedules-for-the-treatment-of-flukes-etc-using-praziquantel/

 

 I couldn't get my head around this so I thought I would ask.  Thanks for your help. 

 

 

 

Test Results for the Following:
 

• * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0ppm (0.1ppm prior to 100% water change today)
• 
  
• * Nitrite Level(Tank)0ppm
• 
  
• * Nitrate level(Tank)0ppm
• 
  
• * Ammonia Level(Tap)0ppm
• 
  
• * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0ppm
• 
  
• * Nitrate level(Tap) 0ppm
• 
  
• * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.4  kh55 gh250 approx.
• 
  
• * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.4  kh55 gh250 approx.
• 
  

 

 

• Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Freshwater master test kit 
  • * Water temperature? 26deg Celcius 
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 19L, two days (upgraded from a 12L and keeping a strict eye on the parameters esp ammonia) 
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aqua One Air Filter Cartridge for up to 26L. I cleaned the filter floss when doing 50% water change yesterday, and ditched it today for new filter floss with 100% water change today in case it was harbouring ich's.  Carbon filter part has been removed. 
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? Did a 50% water change yesterday vacuuming the bottom of the tank, and 100% today due to ich treatment and their being in such a small tank (I don't have a bigger one for QT and cant get one at the moment  ) 
• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Did a 50% water change yesterday vacuuming the bottom of the tank, and 100% today due to ich treatment and their being in such a small tank (I don't have a bigger one for QT and cant get one at the moment  )
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 both about 5-6cm
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime and salt 0.3% (for current ich treatment)
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? Nutrifin  Max Flakes small pinch morning and night, the food is all gone before it hits the bottom of the tank, and it is gone in less than a min.  They were fed shelled peas yesterday and gobbled them up really quickly... prob had about 1.5 peas each (did the 50% water change/tank vac after this)
• * Any new fish added to the tank? No, they have both been in QT the same length of time
• * Any medications added to the tank? salt 0.3% (for current ich treatment)
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  Louie had ich spots on him when I got him so increased the tank temp to from 22-26deg celcius over 36hr and commenced salt treatment starting at 0.1% 5hrs after they were in the tank, increasing to 0.2% 12hrs later, and 0.3% 24hrs later again.
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? pOdges right eye is not in the same position as her left eye, it looks a little protruded at the top.  Ich that was seen on Louie is gone and no other ich has been seen for 2 days. 
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No unusual behaviour, just wanted to catch the eye thing quickly if it was a problem.  Both have responded fine to the salt/temp treatment, and both are eating fine and interacting with me really well.  pOdge likes to come over and 'have a chat' when you go near the tank and move your mouth  . 

 

[Ree 867]

Just a thought,  I have a 58USgal tank just starting cycling for them at the moment.  (Ill check the tank parameters again tomorrow to see if its starting to cycle)  I moved 50% of the media over from the 100L tank I had and made an air bio filter out of a shampoo bottle hoping this would keep the tank a little more stable till the cycle started in the canister.  The canister was set up yesterday.  There are two comets in there at the moment to help the cycle, but they are going in my parents in laws pond when pOdge and Louie are ready to go in.  There are no other fish to go in this tank other than pOdge and Louie who I discuss above. 

 

If I added them to the 58 gal with the 0.3% salt would that disturb the cycling start and kill my Benificial Bacteria?  Also it would mean that I would go through heaps of prazi too... I don't think I can afford that much.  mmmmmmm

 

What if I didn't fill the tank all the way?  Would that help?  The only problem is I only have 2000Lph canister filter set up on the 58gal.  If I reduce the water in the tank would it 'blow them away'?

Edited April 25, 2015 by Ree

[GoldenSpoiledRotten 6,786]

Salt won't kill BBs, so you don't have to worry about that.

 

If you moved the BBs over from the main tank, your tank likely will be partially cycled. However, you have the comets in there that haven't been prazi'd, so there are now flukes in the main tank. The comets would also be stressed by the cycle process, which is why I don't like to recommend fish-in cycling. I'd move the comets out to the pond and find a different way to feed the bacteria. (pure ammonia, fish food, move the fish and the rest of the media from your old filter to the big tank etc.) This will reduce the risk of pOdge and Louie getting flukes when you put them in the main tank after they have gone through the Prazi treatments. 

 

I'm sure someone has better ways to go about it, so I am just voicing my concerns here.

Edited April 25, 2015 by ChelseaM

[Ree 867]

Salt won't kill BBs, so you don't have to worry about that.

 

If you moved the BBs over from the main tank, your tank likely will be partially cycled. However, you have the comets in there that haven't been prazi'd, so there are now flukes in the main tank. The comets would also be stressed by the cycle process, which is why I don't like to recommend fish-in cycling. I'd move the comets out to the pond and find a different way to feed the bacteria. (pure ammonia, fish food, move the fish and the rest of the media from your old filter to the big tank etc.) This will reduce the risk of pOdge and Louie getting flukes when you put them in the main tank after they have gone through the Prazi treatments. 

 

I'm sure someone has better ways to go about it, so I am just voicing my concerns here.

 

So my main tank is already contaminated .  How do I treat the main tank/filter media for flukes once the comets are gone?

 

I cant move the rest of the media from the 100L  , we set the 100L up for my husband with some tropical fish.  He loves tetras. 

 

I don't have access to pure ammonia.  So fish food would work just as well?

 

If I move the 50% of the cycled media (that I have in the home made filter) is in the main tank at the moment, as is the canister on the main tank, but would it be better in the canister?

Edited April 25, 2015 by Ree

[GoldenSpoiledRotten 6,786]

 

Salt won't kill BBs, so you don't have to worry about that.

 

If you moved the BBs over from the main tank, your tank likely will be partially cycled. However, you have the comets in there that haven't been prazi'd, so there are now flukes in the main tank. The comets would also be stressed by the cycle process, which is why I don't like to recommend fish-in cycling. I'd move the comets out to the pond and find a different way to feed the bacteria. (pure ammonia, fish food, move the fish and the rest of the media from your old filter to the big tank etc.) This will reduce the risk of pOdge and Louie getting flukes when you put them in the main tank after they have gone through the Prazi treatments. 

 

I'm sure someone has better ways to go about it, so I am just voicing my concerns here.

 

So my main tank is already contaminated .  How do I treat the main tank/filter media for flukes once the comets are gone?

 

I cant move the rest of the media from the 100L  , we set the 100L up for my husband with some tropical fish.  He loves tetras. 

 

I don't have access to pure ammonia.  So fish food would work just as well?

 

If I move the 50% of the cycled media (that I have in the home made filter) is in the main tank at the moment, as is the canister on the main tank, but would it be better in the canister?

 

You can treat in 1 of two ways:

1. Move pOdge and Louie to the main tank and do Prazi in there

2. Leave the main tank empty and keep it warm while you Prazi in the other one, and the Flukes will die off because they have no host and the heat will speed up the life cycle and the bacteria cycle.

 

As for the ways to cycle, I was just making a normal list. I know that a member or three here used fish food as a cycling agent in the past. I also remember that a prawn makes a pretty good (if slightly stinky) cycling agent. Since you're starting from a base of bacteria already, the food that you use should cycle the tank in no time. 

[fantailfan1 26,742]

I personally don't think a fish in cycle is stressful for the fish IF the person cycling the tank is aware of the cycle process and tests water parameters and does WCs/doses Prime as needed. 

[jmetzger72 6,976]

It might just be easier to finish the 0.3% salt first before doing the Prazi rounds.  This might work:

 

2 weeks of 0.3% salt in QT (for Ich and other protozoan parasites)

2 rounds of Prazi with 0.1% salt in QT (for Flukes)

2-4 rounds of Prazi in the main tank for everyone (for Flukes)

[fantailfan1 26,742]

It might just be easier to finish the 0.3% salt first before doing the Prazi rounds.  This might work:

 

2 weeks of 0.3% salt in QT (for Ich and other protozoan parasites)

2 rounds of Prazi with 0.1% salt in QT (for Flukes)

2-4 rounds of Prazi in the main tank for everyone (for Flukes)

 

 

This is exactly what I'm doing with my newbie right now. 

[Ree 867]

It might just be easier to finish the 0.3% salt first before doing the Prazi rounds.  This might work:

 

2 weeks of 0.3% salt in QT (for Ich and other protozoan parasites)

2 rounds of Prazi with 0.1% salt in QT (for Flukes)

2-4 rounds of Prazi in the main tank for everyone (for Flukes)

 

This sounds easier...

 

The 0.3% salt I think I have under control now.

 

The 2 rounds of Prazi, how do I do them with 100% water changes every day?  Do I add a new lot of Prazi tablets to the water each day, then to the 50%+ water change on day 5?

 

Can I Prazi with snails in the tank?  I do have a water feature that needs snails if it would be easier to move them out there, and get a couple of new snails in a few weeks and QT them before adding to the main tank once everyone else's QT is done?

[Ree 867]

 

 

Salt won't kill BBs, so you don't have to worry about that.

 

If you moved the BBs over from the main tank, your tank likely will be partially cycled. However, you have the comets in there that haven't been prazi'd, so there are now flukes in the main tank. The comets would also be stressed by the cycle process, which is why I don't like to recommend fish-in cycling. I'd move the comets out to the pond and find a different way to feed the bacteria. (pure ammonia, fish food, move the fish and the rest of the media from your old filter to the big tank etc.) This will reduce the risk of pOdge and Louie getting flukes when you put them in the main tank after they have gone through the Prazi treatments. 

 

I'm sure someone has better ways to go about it, so I am just voicing my concerns here.

 

So my main tank is already contaminated .  How do I treat the main tank/filter media for flukes once the comets are gone?

 

I cant move the rest of the media from the 100L  , we set the 100L up for my husband with some tropical fish.  He loves tetras. 

 

I don't have access to pure ammonia.  So fish food would work just as well?

 

If I move the 50% of the cycled media (that I have in the home made filter) is in the main tank at the moment, as is the canister on the main tank, but would it be better in the canister?

 

You can treat in 1 of two ways:

1. Move pOdge and Louie to the main tank and do Prazi in there

2. Leave the main tank empty and keep it warm while you Prazi in the other one, and the Flukes will die off because they have no host and the heat will speed up the life cycle and the bacteria cycle.

 

As for the ways to cycle, I was just making a normal list. I know that a member or three here used fish food as a cycling agent in the past. I also remember that a prawn makes a pretty good (if slightly stinky) cycling agent. Since you're starting from a base of bacteria already, the food that you use should cycle the tank in no time. 

 

 

Hi Chelsea,

 

Thanks for this.  Ill do what you said and add them to the main tank.  Jared suggested leaving it till after the initial 2 rounds of prazi, so ill do that then treat the whole main tank. 

 

Thankyou so much for your help.  It is appreciated!     Makes me feel a lot more confident having advice from people who know what they are doing!  

[Ree 867]

 

It might just be easier to finish the 0.3% salt first before doing the Prazi rounds.  This might work:

 

2 weeks of 0.3% salt in QT (for Ich and other protozoan parasites)

2 rounds of Prazi with 0.1% salt in QT (for Flukes)

2-4 rounds of Prazi in the main tank for everyone (for Flukes)

 

This sounds easier...

 

The 0.3% salt I think I have under control now.

 

The 2 rounds of Prazi, how do I do them with 100% water changes every day?  Do I add a new lot of Prazi tablets to the water each day, then to the 50%+ water change on day 5?

 

Can I Prazi with snails in the tank?  I do have a water feature that needs snails if it would be easier to move them out there, and get a couple of new snails in a few weeks and QT them before adding to the main tank once everyone else's QT is done?

 

 

Also, does the prazi treatment need heat or not?

[shakaho 6,312]

Not.

[Ree 867]

Not.

 

OK, thanks again Sharon! 

 

The 2 rounds of Prazi, how do I do them with 100% water changes every day?  Do I add a new lot of Prazi tablets to the water each day, then to the 50%+ water change on day 5 without adding the prazi?

 

Can I Prazi with snails in the tank?  I do have a water feature that needs snails if it would be easier to move them out there, and get a couple of new snails in a few weeks and QT them before adding to the main tank once everyone else's QT is done?

[fantailfan1 26,742]

Days 1-4 Prazi needs to be in the water so if you're changing out 100% of the water you need to replace the water and the salt. On day 5 (and days 6 and 7 if you do 7 day rounds) no Prazi is added, just salt.

I remove snails for Prazi treatment. I believe nerites can be sensitive to Prazi (it has caused death in some nerites) but I'm not sure on other snails.

[Ree 867]

Days 1-4 Prazi needs to be in the water so if you're changing out 100% of the water you need to replace the water and the salt. On day 5 (and days 6 and 7 if you do 7 day rounds) no Prazi is added, just salt.

I remove snails for Prazi treatment. I believe nerites can be sensitive to Prazi (it has caused death in some nerites) but I'm not sure on other snails.

 

Thanks Fantailfan1!  Ill add the prazi treatments with each water change.

 

The ph of the tapwater is fluctuating between 8.1 and 8.4.  If I was doing 50% water changes I wouldn't be worried, but with 100% I am concerned the ph jump is too great and will stress the pOdge and the Louie.

 

I was thinking today of biting the bullet and treating Louie and pOdge in the 58gal tank as I think I have calculated I have enough tablets to do 6 rounds.  I would:

• remove the two comets out of the 58gal tank,
• add the 0.3% salt, and leaving it sit for a couple of days while I wait for a heater to come for that tank, (could the salt be higer while I wait for the heater?  or no point? with no increased temp?)
• do a 95% water change and adding salt back in and raising temp to 26degrees. 
• then transferring pOdge and Louie to the 58gal
• then completing the ich treatment, counting 10days from moving them to the 58gal if no ich is seen (none has been seen on the comets who have been in the 58gal for 6days, and I have owned for over two months now and they have never had ich while I have owned them)
• then commencing the prazi in this tank. 

 

The 58gal is not finished cycling yet, but it has got to be more stable for them than the daily 100% changes I am doing at the moment, and the 58gal has to be treated anyway.  Does anyone see a better way of doing this?

Does everyone do 6 rounds of prazi? or less?

How will the prazi affect my cycling/media?

Do you have to completely remove and replace all filter media after prazi treatment round, or just the filter floss (its a canister filter)?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ree

[Ree 867]

It might just be easier to finish the 0.3% salt first before doing the Prazi rounds.  This might work:

 

2 weeks of 0.3% salt in QT (for Ich and other protozoan parasites)

2 rounds of Prazi with 0.1% salt in QT (for Flukes)

2-4 rounds of Prazi in the main tank for everyone (for Flukes)

 

OK I need to pick your brains for advice again.... pretty please!

 

I'm back on track I think with Louie at least now.  pOdge is still on antibiotics (kanaplex and metronidazole).  I ended up having to separate them into separate QT tanks.  http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/121344-freckles-or-something-sinister/

 

 

Louie has been ick free now for well over the ten days.

 

Her treatment ended up being the following:

 

She had a weeks treatment for ick at 0.3% salt and then I noticed them yawning a lot, so we started the prazi with 0.1% salt.  pOdge developed a bacterial infection in the first round, and so I put both of them on kanaplex and separated them into separate QT, keeping up Louies kanaplex treatment for 11 days to ensure she did not get septicaemia like pOdge.  So now she has just completed her second prazi round in a separate QT tank to pOdge with 0.1% salt at 16degrees Celsius.  She has been off the kanaplex for 4 days now.  No gulping, yawning, flashing, is eating fine, pooping well, and zooming around the tank. 

 

The 220L tank is pretty much cycled now.  Last readings I took about 4 days ago were (Ill take more tests tomorrow for you):

0ppm ammonia

2ppm nitrites

4ppm nitrates

ph8.4

 

The 220L tank has had no fish in it for 17 days now, and has had a heater set at 29degrees Celsius for over two weeks.  I would like to incorporate a big WC and to clean the canister filter floss before I add the fish due to all the fish flake (concerned it might clog the filter floss).  The current water has not been changed for 20 days or more.  I would like to be able to drop the temp in the main tank back to room temp (about 16degrees Celsius) sometime soon, but was unsure on how to go about it without upsetting the BBs and the fish food fishless cycle.  It is not as precise or as easy to monitor as the ammonia fishless cycle. 

 

So....

 

How do I prepare the main tank for her? 

 

Will it be bacteria/protozoan/ich safe for her now?

 

When would it be safe to take her out of QT and to add her to the 220L?

 

Thanks so much for your help and all your patience!

[jmetzger72 6,976]

The 220L tank will be safe for them, but let's make sure the fish are parasite free before moving them in there.  I also would not drop the temp as low as 16 C.  Gradually lower it to about 22-23 C.  I see you only did one week of salt at 0.3%.  Did you do this for both fish?  What was the temp during that treatment?

[shakaho 6,312]

Don't do a large water change until you have no nitrites.  This should be just a few more days.  

 

Do stop "feeding" the fish food to your nitrifiers.

 

Do turn down the heater to midway between room temperature and the temperature of the quarantine tank.  I doubt that your nitrifiers have become dependent on the high temperature in 2 weeks.   

 

Do clean the crud from your filters.

[Ree 867]

The 220L tank will be safe for them, but let's make sure the fish are parasite free before moving them in there.  I also would not drop the temp as low as 16 C.  Gradually lower it to about 22-23 C.  I see you only did one week of salt at 0.3%.  Did you do this for both fish?  What was the temp during that treatment?

 

I kept it at the 26degrees until past the ten days after I had seen the last ick, but that was about the time I had to separate them, and needed the heater for the tropical for their ick treatment.  They were sitting at about 22 degrees up until about three nights ago, and the ambient temperature here has dropped.  I just double checked and I must have read it wrong earlier... it says 18 degrees Celsius for Louie's tank at the moment.  The 220L is still at 29degrees Celsius.

[Ree 867]

Don't do a large water change until you have no nitrites.  This should be just a few more days.  

 

Do stop "feeding" the fish food to your nitrifiers.

 

Do turn down the heater to midway between room temperature and the temperature of the quarantine tank.  I doubt that your nitrifiers have become dependent on the high temperature in 2 weeks.   

 

Do clean the crud from your filters.

 

Thanks Sharon... so that would be about 24 degrees.  Cool, thanks.

[Ree 867]

 

The 220L tank will be safe for them, but let's make sure the fish are parasite free before moving them in there.  I also would not drop the temp as low as 16 C.  Gradually lower it to about 22-23 C.  I see you only did one week of salt at 0.3%.  Did you do this for both fish?  What was the temp during that treatment?

 

I kept it at the 26degrees until past the ten days after I had seen the last ick, but that was about the time I had to separate them, and needed the heater for the tropical for their ick treatment.  They were sitting at about 22 degrees up until about three nights ago, and the ambient temperature here has dropped.  I just double checked and I must have read it wrong earlier... it says 18 degrees Celsius for Louie's tank at the moment.  The 220L is still at 29degrees Celsius.

 

 

Sorry I just checked, The ich was noticed on the 23rd and treatment started on the 24th of April so salt was at 0.3% by the 26th (26th was the last day I saw the ick).  The salt 0.3% dropped to 0.1% ten days ago for Louie.  That means the salt was at 0.3% for both of them for 11 days, and has been at 0.1% for Louie for the next 10 days. 

 

Podge was on the 0.3% the same 11 days as Louie (treatment also starting on the 24th) and dropped to the 0.1% and was on that for one day then has been on 2teaspoons of Epsom salts in his 40L instead of the salt since (he started to dropsy).

 

Is that clearer?  my brain is not working.. LOL its 1.07am here...

[Ree 867]

oh, also, I forgot to add, originally the 220L was to be prazied too.  Will I need to prazi it now?  or not?  I bought more of the blue planet worm and fluke tablets just in case it needed to be prazied too.

[jmetzger72 6,976]

oh, also, I forgot to add, originally the 220L was to be prazied too.  Will I need to prazi it now?  or not?  I bought more of the blue planet worm and fluke tablets just in case it needed to be prazied too.

Yes, once you've added both fish, do two 5-day rounds of Prazi in the 220 L

[Ree 867]

 

oh, also, I forgot to add, originally the 220L was to be prazied too.  Will I need to prazi it now?  or not?  I bought more of the blue planet worm and fluke tablets just in case it needed to be prazied too.

Yes, once you've added both fish, do two 5-day rounds of Prazi in the 220 L

 

 

So will it be safe to wait the till there are no nitrites, do a big water change, clean everything up, then put Louie in the tank?  or is it too soon yet to put her in there? 

 

pOdge will be in QT a little longer than Louie as he is still on antibiotics, but I will keep up with his prazi while I do that.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Ree

[jmetzger72 6,976]

I think it should be fine once your Nitrites are at zero, the tank is cleaned and the temp is down to 22-23 C.