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Excessive yawning. Still. After multiple prazi treatments.


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For reference on further treatment, here is what we are dealing with on Otto's mouth. Momoko shows no symptoms but some yawning and a few healing white spots on his tail. The yawning could be parasitic, or it could be the water.http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_08/image.jpghttp://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_08/1431129151_image.jpg

He was less than thrilled with being wrangled for photographs, but I hope those are clear. No fuzz, just reddened, raw, and a bit ragged still. It seems to have deteriorated further than a few days ago but I think that's just the skin catching up with the damage done, not anything new, necessarily.

Yes, you can do 100% daily water changes and just replace the full dose of antibiotics. What are you aiming to treat with a PP dip...parasites? I'm not sure I'd go that route as PP can burn the fins and gills.
Koko had suggested it, I'm assuming related to the necrotic patches? As you can see the mouth is still an issue, but not one I think wouldn't just benefit from the continued .3% salt, Furan, Kanaplex, and cleaner water.

Right now I'm just finishing up the courses above and hoping that solves things, but if we think the mouth would benefit from swabbing or direct treatment let me know.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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For reference on further treatment, here is what we are dealing with on Otto's mouth. Momoko shows no symptoms but some yawning and a few healing white spots on his tail. The yawning could be parasitic, or it could be the water.http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_08/image.jpghttp://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_08/1431129151_image.jpg

He was less than thrilled with being wrangled for photographs, but I hope those are clear. No fuzz, just reddened, raw, and a bit ragged still. It seems to have deteriorated further than a few days ago but I think that's just the skin catching up with the damage done, not anything new, necessarily.

Yes, you can do 100% daily water changes and just replace the full dose of antibiotics. What are you aiming to treat with a PP dip...parasites? I'm not sure I'd go that route as PP can burn the fins and gills.
Koko had suggested it, I'm assuming related to the necrotic patches? As you can see the mouth is still an issue, but not one I think wouldn't just benefit from the continued .3% salt, Furan, Kanaplex, and cleaner water.

Right now I'm just finishing up the courses above and hoping that solves things, but if we think the mouth would benefit from swabbing or direct treatment let me know.

 

Let's hold off on the PP for now.  I think the antibiotics will take care of the necrotic patches.  So, the salt is still at 0.3%?

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Yes. I lowered the temp to not encourage the Columnaris to spread any further, so we are at 71 degrees right now, double dosed prime to keep any ammonia under control, Kanaplex and Furan as directed, .3% salt, and water changes every two days on a ten gallon hospital tank.

I have just under a week left of the Kanaplex.

I'd really love to be at daily water changes since they're both decent sized goldfish and eating voraciously If I'd let them, so it's good news I can just spend more in Kanaplex and replace the normal dose every day with a water change ;)

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Sounds good. You've done a great job turning this around :clapping:

I hope so! I worry about his mouth and how red and chewed up it is, but I can't think of a single thing to do for it but clean water and time.

I so appreciate your continued help. Thank you so much, Jared!

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Ugh. Getting some yawning again, wide open mouths, and slight backward swimming and spurting. Ideas?

It's worth noting that Momoko didn't do this the first week I had him in quarantine, but then began to join Otto in that behavior, which is what made me suspect really stubborn and possibly salt and prazi proof ectoparasites of some sort.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Ugh. Getting some yawning again, wide open mouths, and slight backward swimming and spurting. Ideas?

It's worth noting that Momoko didn't do this the first week I had him in quarantine, but then began to join Otto in that behavior, which is what made me suspect really stubborn and possibly salt and prazi proof ectoparasites of some sort.

What day of antibiotics are we on today?  If the salt doesn't cure this, you may need to follow up with the Quick Cure or the PP.  If you end up going with the PP, I would recommend a prolonged bath rather than a dip.

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I am administering Kanaplex today, and have one more treatment two days from now. I think I have two Furan-2 treatmenrs left.

I'd worry about the PP with Otto's raw mouth, but I do have both that and Quick Cure on hand.

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I am administering Kanaplex today, and have one more treatment two days from now. I think I have two Furan-2 treatmenrs left.

I'd worry about the PP with Otto's raw mouth, but I do have both that and Quick Cure on hand.

The other option might be Seachem Paraguard.

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I don't have Paraguard but I can get it. I also have the Tetra Parasite whateeveritscalled in the yellow box. My goal is to massacre whatever seems to be bugging them, because it has resisted multiple other treatments. That's the input I need - what is the most effective anti parasite medication for really stubborn, entrenched cases?

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These fish are driving me nuts! Otto keeps gasping/drinking at the surface, despite perfect parameters and treated water.

His pectoral fins are bloodshot again, seemingly worse than the last two days.

He does great big yawns, stretching all the way to the tip of his tail, every minute or two.

He did something new I've never seen a goldfish do before - flick his dorsal fin rapidly for about fifteen seconds. The only time I've seen this behavior before was breeding behavior in a rainbow fish, where my male rapidly flicked his fins to try and get a response from the female.

Now, Otto does have breeding tubercules on his gill plates, but I have a terrible feeling this is being caused by that unknown parasite. The gulping air is confusing me, though, because unlike the last water change where something was off and I had to do another to rectify the situation, Momoko seems slightly lethargic but otherwise fine (and really, it's the middle of the night and I believe he is just resting, his behavior has been very normal).

I did bleach my Python after the Columnaris of doom, but it has been rinsed and re-rinsed in fresh water and prime. Could residue be causing issues in a prime treated aquarium? My gut and fish keeping experience says this is parasitic, but I just don't know. His fins aren't clamped and he is moving around fairly normally, except for the gulping behavior, still highly irritated pectoral fins, and that bizarro dorsal fin flicking. His mouth is still deteriorated and red, but definitely healing.

I truly believe he only caught Columnaris because he was weakened from whatever underlying parasite issue he has been showing signs of for months on end. The left dorsal fin is still definitely more irritated than the right, though. Now I did a month and gill check and both looked to be clear of any mechanical obstruction, deterioration, bleeding, etc. Bright red and clean margins on his gills. I'm just at a loss and he seems to be worsening in relation to the parasite issue even as he has beaten back that secondary Columnaris infection. I'm really getting worried while waiting these last few days left of the Kanaplex treatment. I have airstones going, fresh water every two days, good nutrition for them, proper temperature, double dosed daily prime, buffering trace minerals present to assist in osmotic function and healing, etc etc etc. it's very frustrating to feel like I am missing something that might potentially kill my fish, and unfortunately I cannot purchase a microscope for another month to do some scrapings and try to conclusively identify whatever parasite is dragging them down.

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Quick Cure contains both Formalin and Malachite Green.  It is quite effective for most parasites other than lice and anchor worms.  The problem is that Formalin is very caustic and may burn fins and gills.  It also kills filter bacteria, reduces oxygen levels and may kill an already weakened fish.  It think this will kill your parasite, but it may also kill your fish :(

 

Seachem Paraguard contains Malachite Green as well as some aldehydes and is said to be much less toxic than other similar parasite meds.  It is not "supposed" to kill filter bacteria or stain silicone like some MG formulas.  I have not used it myself, but it seems more appealing than most parasite meds I've come across.

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I've used Seachem Paraguard in my shrimp tank for 2-3 weeks (I can't remember exactly). It did not kill the cycle.

Edited by LisaCGold
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Well the cycle is irrelevant because I nuked my filter with Acriflavin, then boiled it, then dried everything out for a week, and now it's sitting on my floor :P

I was mostly worried about Quick Cure injuring them, but I'm just not sure anything else is strong enough and having not identified this parasite I'm not sure what measures to take.

I suppose I could buy Paraguard, try it, and if we still have symptoms I could move to the Quick Cure?

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Ugh. I just watched him do another one of those great, stretching yawns and flick his caudal and anal fins like he was flicking his dorsal fin earlier. No clamping, but he is lethargic.

I have one more Kanaplex dose to do tomorrow, but I'm seriously considering shortening that duration to tackle the parasite issue. He seems labored over it, for lack of a better word.

He is twitching and shaking his mouth and gill covers, too. I wonder which parasitic nasty this could be?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Quick Cure contains both Formalin and Malachite Green.  It is quite effective for most parasites other than lice and anchor worms.  The problem is that Formalin is very caustic and may burn fins and gills.  It also kills filter bacteria, reduces oxygen levels and may kill an already weakened fish.  It think this will kill your parasite, but it may also kill your fish :(

 

Seachem Paraguard contains Malachite Green as well as some aldehydes and is said to be much less toxic than other similar parasite meds.  It is not "supposed" to kill filter bacteria or stain silicone like some MG formulas.  I have not used it myself, but it seems more appealing than most parasite meds I've come across.

 

What about this: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?medications&1431405626

This is what I use now that no one is selling quinine anymore. It's a lot less harsh than things with Formalin and Malachite Green and will kill a lot of various parasites. Not sure if it would help in this situation or not, but thought I'd put it out there as an option. 

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Ugh. I just watched him do another one of those great, stretching yawns and flick his caudal and anal fins like he was flicking his dorsal fin earlier. No clamping, but he is lethargic.

I have one more Kanaplex dose to do tomorrow, but I'm seriously considering shortening that duration to tackle the parasite issue. He seems labored over it, for lack of a better word.

He is twitching and shaking his mouth and gill covers, too. I wonder which parasitic nasty this could be?

I understand. Just be aware that the Formalin may have some harmful side effects.
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Understood. I could try the Tetra Parasite Guard first, but I'm not sure the Metronidazole is needed or that the Diflubenzone and Acriflavin will do the trick. I don't want to kill Otto either, though! Let me watch him today and check on the availability of Paraguard locally,

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Understood. I could try the Tetra Parasite Guard first, but I'm not sure the Metronidazole is needed or that the Diflubenzone and Acriflavin will do the trick. I don't want to kill Otto either, though! Let me watch him today and check on the availability of Paraguard locally,

I think the Acriflavine would be the only useful ingredient here and probably not as effective as the Paraguard.

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That was my thought. And I already did straight Acriflavin on the main tank, anyway, as a bactericide. But it apparently didn't wipe out the parasite. Whatever it is, it's hardy.

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Tank cleared of all chemicals and salt, temperature dropped a bit to help keep the oxygen saturation good in the water, and Quick Cure added. It's been several hours and everyone still looks good. I'm going to keep an eye on them and do a water change if they show signs of stress but we still have eating and swimming, no whirling or other worrisome signs. The whole day prior to the water change was spent with flicking and backwards spurting so that made my decision for me.

I was planning on keeping the treatment up four to five days unless they still showed symptoms. I'm already seeing very little yawning and spurting but I don't want to deal with a parasite resurgence because I ditched treatment too early, either!

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.... They keep flirting with each other. I'm getting butt sniffing and bumping into the glass, in the chemical filled treatment tank?!

Apparently Spring is a powerful, powerful motivator, even for sick fish. Wowza!

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New video from today. Don't mind the cloudiness, we had Jump Start fall and dissolve before it could be eaten, plus some poo foraging and rejecting of said poo, so despite a water change last night things look a wee bit murky!

I'm debating stopping the Quick Cure here at the third dose and resting the fish since the parasite riddled behavior is pretty much gone. But I'm so paranoid - how do I know it's really dealt with? I don't want to move them to their new home and have this pop up again to infect new tankmates. Could anything survive the formalin and malachite green? I've been treating this stupid, mystery parasite so long I'm completely without confidence it will ever go away :(

It seems like I can beat it back, but never eradicate it. Despite the normal behavior we still have red, irritated pectoral fins and tail streaks - but what more can I do that I haven't already done in the past two weeks?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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