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Excessive yawning. Still. After multiple prazi treatments.


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Will do. Right now he is looking worse than earlier, but not the slime cost, mostly just yawning and more bloodshot. I'm getting a little worried as the night progresses. I'll poke someone for help if things don't improvor his symptoms worsen. Right now we are getting. Bit of drifting in the water, some head flicking, and otherwise a fair bit of lethargy. Probably three to four yawns a minutes

I rechecked the water params today, too:

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 10 ppm

Temp: 78 degrees F

Salinity: .3%

I almost wonder if he is sensitive to the salt, since he seems to have gotten worse when I began treating with it - what with the reddened mouth and fins.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Otto has taken a turn for the worst. Now his fins are all bloodshot and he is pale, so I'm assuming it is some sort of secondary infection at this point. I don't want to just drop the salinity to nothing and shocking him further, so I'm thinking of taking it back to 1% and treating with Kanamycin. Then after that course of treatment, if he is still showing irritation (even after the salt dip he is spurting backwards, yawning, etc) dosing him with the Quick Cure. Whatever this is seems both salt and prazi resistant.

I really don't want to wait to do something, his condition is deteriorating rapidly. Is salt contraindicated for the Kanamycin? How many days should I do this? He had a two week course back in February.

I also have Erythromycin, Metromeds, and General Cure if the Kanamycin isn't the best choice. And Parasite Guard.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Current treatment as of last night is 76 degrees, .1% salinity, Kanaplex. He is looking much less pale and bloodshot today, but has new white spots on his tail that appear to be ulcerations. On the upside, I haven't noticed much yawning since I decreased the salt and temp a bit. But this secondary infection is awful. Any advice would be great - my plan was to do at least six days of Kanaplex and then Quick Cure (once the salinity was removed) to knock out the protozoan issue once and for all. He has been showing symptoms for months and salt only seemed to make him weaker, which is when I noticed the redness in his body really ramp up. He had no mouth redness prior to that :(

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http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_03/1430676711_image.jpg

http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_03/1430676716_image.jpg

Here is a better picture of the white spots in his tail. They aren't external like ich, but seem to be inside the fin, which is why I thought they might be ulceration. Especially given the bright red they were last night.

Believe it or not, this is an improvement over last night :(

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Oh no! White spots on his tail have spread into larger patches, and he has a few white tufts on his back. Is this a tertiary fungal infection to the secondary bacterial infection and primary protozoan issue?! I'm assuming the poor fish is so stressed that every opportunistic nasty is seizing on him :(

Will continue the Kanaplex, but I'm wondering if I can add the Quick Cure to it and just try to hit both issue at once. I do have Furan-2 on hand as well. Poor little Otto :(

I'll post a video of him this evening, so you can contrast with the one from twelve hours ago.

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More spreading, clamping fins, getting very lethargic. He seems to be worsening rapidly, so I'm doing a hail Mary here at 12:30 am to help him. Full water change, putting the kanamycin back in, adding the Quick Cure. It looks like textbook Columnaris to me, but I'm not ruling out Costia, either, since it seems to have gotten worse in a salt solution and not better.

If he is gone in the morning I'll know I gave it my best shot to help him. And if it works I'll dose my main tank as well, since my other fish has been exposed and it's likely in the filter. Blah :(

Prayers this works would be super!

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Dosed. And unfortunately the red part of his mouth is beginning to look ragged, like mouth rot. Now I'm really thinking Columnaris. He has had symptoms for so long, I'm wondering if stress just finally triggered it. What a stressful fishy night!

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Dosed. And unfortunately the red part of his mouth is beginning to look ragged, like mouth rot. Now I'm really thinking Columnaris. He has had symptoms for so long, I'm wondering if stress just finally triggered it. What a stressful fishy night!

I was trying to think of that yesterday... in the Betta world its call Flexibacter I was trying to remember that.. thats what I was thinking.....

 

These are the antibiotics to use hun... :)

 

"Acriflavine, Furan-2, and Terramycin may all be used externally to treat Columnaris. Terramycin has proven to be quite effective both as a bath, and when used to treat foods for internal infections."

 

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/columnaris.htm

 

and Potassium Permanganate

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I have Acriflavin, but good news! This morning he is looking slightly less red and fuzzy, especially the fins. Still white blotches and they're looking slightly ragged, but I think I halted the spread. I'll continue with the Quick Cure and Kanamycin, and I'll start the Fungus a Cure and Furan-2 only of that doesn't knock the symptoms out by the end of the week.

Hopefully when he gets back, Jared can advise me how much Kanaplex I can utilize against the flexibacter without trashing Otto's kidneys, since he has already had a fairly long round in his recent history. A treatment schedule for the Quick Cure would also be appreciated, if anyone has one. Otherwise I'll use as the bottle instructs.

I'm just amazed that it looks like Columnaris and still persisted even with the salt. But supposedly that stuff is susceptible to salt, mostly in preventing additional spread. It obviously didn't cure it. I'm thinking this was an opportunistic infection and that salt resistant protozoans are still the primary pathogen, given the duration of symptoms (months) and the treatment history. But once he was stressed and weakened this virulent bacteria seemed to just seize on him. It's been two days since the onsett of symptoms and it went SO quickly.

I'm glad to see Otto isn't belly up this morning. His mouth is also looking marginally less ragged. I'll provide another video a little later on for some contrast..

I could switch directly from the Kanaplex to the Furan if we think that is wiser, but I didn't want to stop antibiotics halfway and encourage resistance, either. What is wiser - continuing the course or switching to the different meds?

These are Carl's recommendations, which I'm not too far off with my current treatment. It also makes me feel better seeing such a rapid spread in extremely oxygenated, warm, clean water:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html

Edited by Arctic Mama
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If it was me hun... I would do the PP baths....With your Kanaplex.... If thats not helping after the treament then lets switch to Furan

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I don't have PP on hand but I rhink I can acquire it. Let me check around locally. Would the PP also knock back the protozoan issue?

How should I treat my main tank? It has been exposed to both and has a healthy ranchu in it (Momoko, the new guy). Since Columnaris and the salt resistant protozoan are in there, what's the best way to nuke thag with the least damage to the fish and my cycle? Acriflavin is a bit unlink to nitrifying bacteria but I'll do it if I have to. That main tank is still currently at 78 degrees with .3% salt.

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Hi Arctic Mama,

 

I found your thread and pics of your little Otto.  Is he any better?  He is such a beautiful boy.  Just letting you know I'm thinking of you and your Otto, and to say thankyou for the kind words you left me with this morning.  :tou

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I don't have PP on hand but I rhink I can acquire it. Let me check around locally. Would the PP also knock back the protozoan issue?

How should I treat my main tank? It has been exposed to both and has a healthy ranchu in it (Momoko, the new guy). Since Columnaris and the salt resistant protozoan are in there, what's the best way to nuke thag with the least damage to the fish and my cycle? Acriflavin is a bit unlink to nitrifying bacteria but I'll do it if I have to. That main tank is still currently at 78 degrees with .3% salt.

YEs it would http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potassiumpermanganate.htm

 

 

I think there is only two ways... either QT and nuke the tank or Use the meds in the tank and nuke it... :doh11:

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The white fuzz on his head seems to be worse even as his fins are a little better. I'm going to alter the course of treatment and continue with the Kanaplex and add in the Furan-2 and Acriflavin. The question is if I should do these in the main tank to nuke it and treat my ranchu along with Otto or not?

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Quick Cure oxidized out, added the Furan-2 to the Kanaplex in the quarantine tank. Still awaiting advice on the main tank and the best method of cleaning the system. I'm afraid if I try to sterilize my filter I'll miss bits and reinfect the system. I do actually have a second, unused filter, but I'd rather hate to junk such an expensive piece of equipment. Poor Otto has several necrotic spots on him now, so here's to hoping the Furan and Kanaplex, alone, will do the job.

I'm considering throwing my ranchu into the QT and running that nasty Potassium Permanganate (assuming I can even find it locally) through the whole thing to sterilize it, if the Acriflavine alone wouldn't do the trick. Right now the main tank is running with .3% salt and I cannot figure out if the Acriflavine is contraindicated with the salt. I also hate the thought of using TWO antibiotic measures with a healthy fish, as Momoko shows no symptoms, but I know he has been exposed.

Please advise on the best course of action for the remaining fish and main tank. I'm okay with treating it with meds but I worry about my ability to just sterlize everything sufficiently. I'm leaning toward Acriflavine, which I already have, as probably being disinfectant enough to be the sole treatment needed for Momoko the Ranchu and my main tank. Yes, no?

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Momoko started swimming frenetically, glass surfing, racing, and biting at the top of the tank out of the blue. I went ahead with the bactericide Acriflavin to staunch any spread of the Columnaris or advance of it. The tank is still at .3% salinity, too. I cannot get out to the fish store to check for the PP or anything else for a few more hours, but that should but time and sanitize the filters and such.

This Columnaris sucks.

There is still external necrosis on Otto but so far, so good, with the Furan/Kanamycin combo.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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I'm just getting back from my absence this weekend.  I will have more time to look at this tonight.  Can you give me a synopsis of exactly what you are treating with right now.  I have read that Furan-2 and Kanaplex work well together for serious cases of Columnaris if that is what we are fighting here.

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The videos are current and I'll grab new ones of both Otto (proven Columnaris and the suspected salt resistant protozoan) and Momoko (no visible infections, but exposed to everything in the tank with Otto and just beginning to dart).

I had heard the same thing about the Columnaris which is why I switched treatment this morning to Furan-2 and Kanaplex (I just don't want to do kidney damage). Temp is about 74, so as not ton safer age the Columnaris. No salt. All this is for the white patches on tail, necrotizing mouth, and fluffy necrotic spots on his back and flanks. His fins are clamped and he is lethargic, but still eating and capable of swimming. Still spurting. No more yawning since the salt, Kanaplex, and Quick Cure dose last night (he was taking a horrible turn so this was a last ditch effort to help battle some of what was taking him down, and despite the worsening appearance of the Columnaris today he seems slightly improved).

The salt seemed to make things worse, after I did the dip he really took a downward turn. I don't know if it's just coincidental to the stress of treatment, however.

Momoko is in the main tank and I left that at the .3% salinity to discourage any infection or pathogen spreading. Water was 78 degrees, but upon seeing Columnaris I lowered the temp to 76 and am working it slowly downward to not make the pathogen more virulent. He just suddenly began glass surfing, swimming frantically, and biting at the surface, and since I know he was exposed to everything Otto might have had and I needed to nuke the tank anyway, I added Acriflavin as per the label to sanitize things and discourage any more spread or infections, awaiting further instructions.

That's where we are at now, and I am heading to the pet store later today to grab more prime (so I can disinfect any bleach used for sanitize nets and such), Potassium Permanganate, and more Kanaplex and Furan-2 so I don't run out in the middle of the treatment.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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New video of Otto and Momoko forthcoming, I'm having technical difficulties. Otto just began some bottom sitting.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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