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Arctic Mama

Excessive yawning. Still. After multiple prazi treatments.

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Title says it all. Jared has given me advice on this fish before, but the symptoms remain. Otto the fantail has exhibited flashing, yawning, clamped fins, etc. His pectoral fins are red and irritated at their base. His color is consistently washed out. And yet, this guy has been through four rounds of prazi in the last two months, along with Kanaplex, use of Metromeds in months prior, and an initial quarantine with salt and prazi.

He is yawning more, not less, even after a water change (and I have been changing 95% twice weekly, to ensure that isn't making things worse). Right now he is yawning several times a minute, and big, gaping yawns, not brief ones. He is also hanging out by the surface and occasionally twitching around like he is itchy. No clamped fins right right, no rapid respiration, but if it was anyone else's fish I'd be positive they still had parasites.

So. What is my next line of treatment. Copper? Dimilin? He is getting worse, not better, and I've given the prazi treatmenrs ample time to work.

I have on hand: Metromeds (small amount remaining before expiration), General Cure, Furan-2, Erythromicin, Kanamycin, Parasite Guard, Pimafix, Acriflavine, Quick Cure (Formalin/Malachite Green combo), and Methylene Blue.

I also have Epsom salt and normal rock salt on hand for treatment, as well as baking soda.

But I'm stumped as to how to treat him. I'm very, very close to whipping out the Quick Cure, but it is quite harsh. And I can try ordering additional medication but would prefer not to.

Expert advice needed, please. I've done everything else I can think of and the tank params are exactly where they should be. But he needs more help.

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Forgive me if I've asked you this before, but have you tried 0.3% salt (1 Tablespoon per gallon) for an uninterrupted period of 2 weeks at a temp of about 78?

 

It seems parasitic, maybe not flukes, but something protozoan.  A salt dip might help.

 

Also, can you fill out the D&D form here when you get a chance :)

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I'm sorry Otto has been through a lot and still not doing well.  I hope he gets to feeling/acting better soon.

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I just did another water change today and noticed more yawning and backward spurting, to the point of nearly whirling. It is the weirdest thing. I noted that after my last water change things were worse for a day before they improved. Maybe I need to be aging my tap water in addition to treating it, despite having it be low chrlorine, neutral ph, and low nitrates naturally? It's not like the symptoms go away when the water is dirty, but they don't seem to improve upon clean fresh water, either. I'm also considering adding an airstone, as it could be that the dissolved oxygen is a little low for some reason.

Jared, I haven't done a salt treatment since I first got him. I'm going to clean my filter a bit since its accumulated quite a bit of debris, do another water change to make sure the params are pristine, and then try salt and heat as you have advised. It probably won't hurt anything and could likely help. I'll keep you posted on how it goes. Any additional thoughts on what might be causing the problem would be great.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Maybe test your tap water (not the tank water) again.  What's the pH situation between your tap and tank?  

 

This seems like an ectoparasitic to me.  Since you've already tried Prazi and antibiotics, salt at 0.3% plus heat for 2 weeks seems to be the best option to try next.  Be care to disinfect and dry your hands and equipment between uses to avoid reinfestation.   If this fails, you might be dealing with a salt resistant parasite.  In this case, you may need to resort to Formalin and/or Malachite Green (Paraguard, Quick Cure, etc.).

 

Are you comfortable doing a salt dip?

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I have the temp now at 76 degrees and then salinity is 2.5%. His top fin is a little clamped but otherwise he is unchanged in terms of pale color and slightly bloodshot, irritated pectorals (all other fins are still totally clear of any bloodshot veins, frays, splits, etc). What I have noticed is that, instead of yawning, he is respiration deeply and heavily. Not rapidly, but with a wide O mount shape and working to use it past his gills. It's strange, but I figured it was pertinent. Occasionally he shakes his head around, but no flashing against objects. It really just seems like his mouth or gills are bugging him.

I was unable to rope my spouse into helping me lift his canister filter so I can change out the pad, but I'm doing another water change this afternoon and I'll test the params again. Even after a week in the tank the pH is always the same, right at 7.0. No ammonia or nitrates present in the tap (awe have a glacial fed lake that is our water source and it is pure and very stable). I'm still fighting an uphill battle since my filter switchover to the canister, and it hasn't totally cycled, but even when I'm changing the water every two days and nothing is showing on my API tests I'm still seeing symptoms. It seems poor water quality exacerbates, but hasn't cauded, whatever is ailing Otto.

When I get the params this afternoon I'll try to plug them into a D&D form. I always figure water changes are first, and documenting them is a plus but not something I stress over if time is short :)

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Oh! As for a salt dip I could certainly try it, and I do have the quick cure on hand.

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Now his mouth looks red and irritated from the wide respiration and yawning :(

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Interesting, now that I'm looking again the side of his mouth that has reddened is also the pectoral fin that is more bloodshot and irritated. It's his left side, and the right side looks more normal and always has.

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0 (but tank was prime dosed yesterday after water change)

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 (maybe the slightest tint of purple to the otherwise light blue, so maybe trace?)

* Nitrate level(Tank) 5 ppm

* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrate level(Tap) 0

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.0, don't have test time right now

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.0, ditto!

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops

* Water temperature? 78 degrees

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gallon quarantine, about 18 months?

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Sunsun canister, 304 I think?

* How often do you change the water and how much? 2x weekly, 95% changes

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, 90% (I usually refill,menu the filter, and drain again to get it even cleaner, but ran out of time after the first refill)

* How many fish in the tank and their size? One fantail, three inch body, one ranchu, two inch body

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, wonder shells, currently at 2.5% salinity

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Paradigm herbivore fish food 2x daily, Repashy Super Green 1x daily

* Any new fish added to the tank? Ranchu was added two weeks ago, but the symptoms of the fantail have been around in some degree since he was purchased almost two years ago

* Any medications added to the tank? None right now except aquarium salt and heat.

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Originally a salt and heat quarantine period, then a good dozen prazi treatments over the months, including three in the last month. One bout of kanamycin trying to manage these same symptoms in March, and Metromeds in January.

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Reddened, irritated pectoral, now a reddened side to mouth, spurting backward, tons of yawning, a little flicking and flashing, pale coloration, and overall unhappy fish. Still eating and swimming around normally.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Salinity is all the way up to 3%. It might be closer to 3.5%, given the size of a few of the chunks of rock salt I'm diluting into the tank. Yawning, red jaw/mouth, not much change. I began an air pump due to the higher temperature,mot make sure the oxygen stays up.

With that mouth redness I'm itching to grab the quick cure. Since it is only on one side I wonder is something is anchored in his mouth internally that I cannot see. It would have had to have been there for a long time, given the duration of his symptoms.

His other fins are slightly more red now, though his dorsal fin isn't clamped and he is swimming normally, poor Otto.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Excuse the terrible photo, but I was able to capture th side of him that has the irritated mouth and pectoral. The other flank is fairly normal.

http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_01/image.jpg

Ideas? He doesn't seem too happy with the heat and salinity.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Salinity is all the way up to 3%. It might be closer to 3.5%, given the size of a few of the chunks of rock salt I'm diluting into the tank. Yawning, red jaw/mouth, not much change. I began an air pump due to the higher temperature,mot make sure the oxygen stays up.

With that mouth redness I'm itching to grab the quick cure. Since it is only on one side I wonder is something is anchored in his mouth internally that I cannot see. It would have had to have been there for a long time, given the duration of his symptoms.

His other fins are slightly more red now, though his dorsal fin isn't clamped and he is swimming normally, poor Otto.

Make sure the rock salt is pure NaCl with no iodine, anticaking gents or other additives.  There are different kinds sold as "rock salt" which can contain different chemicals.

 

When you Prazi'd, did you have salt in the water?  At what concentration?  Was it Prazipro liquid?

 

If you are sure the salt is safe and if he is active and eating, I would try a salt dip.

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Pure salt. No additives. So you want me to do a dip in addition to the warm/saline tank environment?

No salt in with any prazi except his first coming home quarantine, and I'm using Hikari prazipro.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Just checking: your tank is at ~0.35% salinity and not ~3.5%, correct?

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Omg! Yes, if it's 3. 5%, please reduce it to 0.3% (1 Tablespoon/gallon) immediately.

Although, I think the fish would be belly up if it were at 3.5 %.

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Omg! Yes, if it's 3. 5%, please reduce it to 0.3% (1 Tablespoon/gallon) immediately.

 

Just to clarify, 0.3% = 1 Tablespoon/gallon & 0.1% =1 Teaspoon/gallon, yes?

:idont

Edited by Mr. Hyde

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Omg! Yes, if it's 3. 5%, please reduce it to 0.3% (1 Tablespoon/gallon) immediately.

Just to clarify, 0.3% = 1 Tablespoon/gallon & 0.1% =1 Teaspoon/gallon, yes?

:idont

Yes :)

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Ah! Excuse the decimal. Yes, 1 tbsp per gallon.

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I also added a power head with air in tube to aerate the water better, given the temperature. He doesnt seem to be pushed around overly much by the current and the fine bubbles should be okay, right? If he was having swimming issues I'd be more worried but Otto is mostly stuck with the irritated mouth and yawning.

Are we thinking this is still protozoan? The mouth allllmost reminds me of ulcers or mouth rot, but given the other symptoms it seems like they are all probably related to the bunker lying infestation. Thoughts?

I'll have to salt dip this afternoon. Hoping for the bes with that.

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Omg! Yes, if it's 3. 5%, please reduce it to 0.3% (1 Tablespoon/gallon) immediately.

Although, I think the fish would be belly up if it were at 3.5 %.

I ferment vegetables at that salinity, which is why the number stuck in my head. But we really don't want to brine our pets :P

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Dipped him until he fainted and wouldn't keep swimming around the bowl. I was able to get some better pictures than through my quarantine bin, too. Anything look amiss?

http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_01/1430523771_image.jpg

http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_01/1430523772_image.jpg

http://www.aurorafiberarts.com/data/phoo/2015_05_01/1430523773_image.jpg

Edited by Arctic Mama

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You know, any time you have a parasitic infestation, bacterial infections often set in after.  So, we will just have to see if the salt alone does the trick.  The salt dip should have knocked many of the parasites off of him and the 0.3% salt should kill the ones in the water as well as break the parasites lifecycle. Hopefully, you won't need an antibiotic.  

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So I'm not going crazy that he looks a little inflamed under his scales, like at the base of his pectoral fins and tail? It's so hard to tell and his fins are still very clear, but he just hasn't been 'right'.

He had that course of Kanamycin six weeks ago, but I suppose that might not have kicked any infection, especially if his condition worsened recently.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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See how he is tomorrow.  He may look nasty as the salt dip can cause the slime coat to slough.  I'd give the salt a few days to work.  If he is not better, it may be wise to do another round of Kanaplex.

 

I will be gone this weekend, so please don't think I am ignoring you.  Use the report button if you need help and no one responds :)

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