Fungus among us?

[EdgarTheFish]

·         Test Results for the Following:

o    * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0ppm

o    * Nitrite Level(Tank)5.0ppm

o    * Nitrate level(Tank)40ppm

o    * Ammonia Level(Tap)1.0ppm

o    * Nitrite Level(Tap)0ppm

o    * Nitrate level(Tap)0ppm

o    * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) Ph is between 7.4 and 7.6

o    * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.4

o    Other Required Info:

§  * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master drop kit

§  * Water temperature? 74 *F

§  * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gal for 2-3 weeks. 

§  * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Marineland Bio-wheel filter running at 150gph

 

§  * How often do you change the water and how much? I had a cycle bump with the tank upgrade so I don’t have a regular WC schedule at the moment, did 75% WC the first week every third day and 50% WC every third day since then. Next WC was planned for tomorrow.

·         * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Two days ago, 50%

·         * How many fish in the tank and their size? two fancies, both are about 3 inches long

·         * What kind of water additives or conditioners? aq. salt, prime. 

·         * What do you feed your fish and how often? sinking pellets from API once or twice daily, they finish it in about 30 seconds.

·         * Any new fish added to the tank? Just the oranda.

·         * Any medications added to the tank? prazi and metronidazole

·         * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Prazi and metro were added when I added my uncle’s fish. I did a second dose two days ago.

·         * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Healing ammonia burns (black streaks) on the Oranda that had appeared after moving him from my uncle's tank to mine. Pretty sure my moor is now blind in at least one eye, it's foggy and has a red spot at the bottom. My moor also has a white patch above his dorsal fin that reminds me of white cotton candy.

·         * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? The oranda was floaty three mornings ago, I kept the tank lights off and fasted, and then he was normal, and he was floaty again the next morning, I added the metro/prazi and he is now only very randomly floaty, always upright and able to hang out at the bottom if he wants to.

 

Questions: Is my moor suffering from a fungus or is that an ammonia burn (ammo has been at 0 for about four days now)?  Is the oranda floaty because of the bad water, the food, or possible infection (he wasn't being taken care of at my uncle's house which is why I now have him).  Should I be worried about my ammo in my tap because I haven't considered that it could be causing an issue? 

 

Sorry not the best photos, he's super active, no flashing or bottom sitting, just the patch and the eye thing (it's the same eye that I thought was swollen a while ago too but it hasn't changed in size since then). 

 

[Kayla102968]

Hi Ava. Is your tank nitrite really at 5? Nitrite is worse than ammonia. You can use double prime to detoxify 1 ppm ammonia in your tap water. Your pH also seems to drop quite a bit...are you using any baking soda to help keep your pH more stable?

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kayla102968

[EdgarTheFish]

Hi Ava. Is your tank nitrite at 5? Nitrite is worse than ammonia. You can use prime to detoxify 1 ppm ammonia in your tap water. Your pH also seems to drop quite a bit...are you using any baking soda to help keep your pH more stable?

 

I do use prime regularly with my WC so that's a relief.  I am not using baking soda for the pH, I've never had to before and we moved two months ago, so this is new to me. I'll do a WC tonight then for sure, how do I go about the baking soda? Why is the pH change a problem? 

[Kayla102968]

You will want to double the prime when you do water changes to remove chlorine and detoxify ammonia. I have soft water too, and if the pH drops too much too quickly it can cause your fish to be unwell.

[EdgarTheFish]

ok great to know, what should I be doing with baking soda then? I didn't realize nitrites were worse than ammo. so I definitely want to get my WC on the way soon. 

[Kayla102968]

I would do as large of a water change as you can to get rid of those nitrites. Nitrites are lethal at much lower levels than ammonia. Don't forget to double dose your prime.

[EdgarTheFish]

Ok will do

[Kayla102968]

Adding aquarium or Morton's canning and pickling salt (no additives) to 0.1% can also help with preventing nitrite poisoning...but you still need to up your water changes by a lot if your nitrites are reading that high between water changes.

[fantailfan1]

Actually the dosage for salt is 1 tsp per 10 gallons for nitrite toxicity . . .  

 

I agree as far as doing a large WC to decrease the nitrite.  It's  hard to say exactly what is causing all the symptoms but the first thing to do is get your water quality better.  It's hard to tell what the white is in the pic.  It could be thickened slime coat.  A closer/clearer pic would help.  Put him in a smaller container or hold him while someone snaps a pic for you.

 

Hard to say why the oranda is floaty also.  Why don't you fast for a couple of days?  That will help the water quality and if the floating stops then it may be that the floatiness is food related (either type of food or overfeeding).  If the floating doesn't stop, it could be infection or water quality. 

 

Eventually your filter/biobugs will be able to handle the ammonia in your tap water within 24 hours so as long as you double dose Prime at WCs, the ammonia will not be an issue (again, once the tank is fully cycled).

 

Take a look at this article regarding baking soda and pH:

 

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/110296-stabilizing-your-tank-ph-with-sodium-bicarbonate-baking-soda/

[EdgarTheFish]

Alright. I did a WC because I really didn't want them sitting in bad water much longer. I'm going to study the pH/kH thing, I failed chemistry twice (it's why I'm a vet tech instead of a biologist!) Fish are going to be fasted. Here's my current params post-WC:

 

Nitrite: 0.5ppm

Nitrate:0

Ammonia: 0.25ppm

Ph: 7.4-7.6

 

I used 4mls of Prime and I will add 2 tsp of Aq. Salt. right now and try to get a better pic. 

[fantailfan1]

Sounds good.  Keep us posted and let us know what questions you have. 

[EdgarTheFish]

Again it's not the best but maybe video is better, I can't get him still right now because they're hungry and think I'm feeding them every time I approach the tank.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM7MmehG3vk&feature=youtu.be

[EdgarTheFish]

Alright, regarding the pH and my water parameters tell me if I have this correct in understanding. I've been trying to get a basic understanding and so far this is what I have:

 

osmoregulation: basically fish homeostasis with the environment, the regulation of minerals and chemicals in the environment through the gills and body systems. 

 

kH- carbonate hardness of water. kH measures calcium carbonate in the water. osmoregulation of kH: calcium carbonate is broken up to regulate blood flow, immune system, metabolism, bone growth in fish. Calcium is the most abundant mineral found in aquarium water. Carbonate is unstable and matches up with h+ ions so it will take make the pH basic instead of acidic, this increases the pH. 

 

gH: general hardness, all minerals, including calcium carbonate. Magnesium, chloride, sodium, sulphur are the other main parts of water measured in hardness and other minerals require more extensive testing to detect. 

 

nitrites: there are two types of nitrites, nitrite ion and nitrous acid. Nitrous acid is nitrate that has bonded with H+ which will increase the pH, making the pH more basic. Any level of nitrite is toxic and the treatment for toxicity is aq. salt at 1tsp/10g. 

 

My questions then, with my pH basic at my tap, my nitrite situation, why is my pH dropping so low and so fast?
Can I purchase a kH/gH testing kit or is this an equation based on my pH since the kH is relative to the pH?
Also, once my parameters are under control, will this still be an issue or is this just how it is?
Also, temperature has been mentioned a couple of times in the articles I read, only to be said "keep the temperature the same, no fluctuation"  does this mean any temp? is mine ok? 

[fantailfan1]

 

 

My questions then, with my pH basic at my tap, my nitrite situation, why is my pH dropping so low and so fast?  KH is the buffering capacity of the water.  If your KH is low, your pH will change (either drop or rise) as the water ages and gases are released.  Using baking soda will raise your KH and, therefore, keep your pH stable.

Can I purchase a kH/gH testing kit or is this an equation based on my pH since the kH is relative to the pH?  Yes, you can purchase a KH/GH test kit and I recommend you do.  I got mine on amazon for $8 I think.  For anyone using baking soda regularly, I think it's worth the money.

Also, once my parameters are under control, will this still be an issue or is this just how it is?  I believe that your pH is changing due to low KH, not your tank cycling/water parameters. 

Also, temperature has been mentioned a couple of times in the articles I read, only to be said "keep the temperature the same, no fluctuation"  does this mean any temp? is mine ok?   When you're cycling, you're trying to grow bacteria (as crazy as that sounds ).  Bacteria prefer warmer temps vs colder temps.  A tank will cycle faster at 80* than 60*.  I think your tank temp of 74* is just fine for cycling. 

 

[EdgarTheFish]

Ok so my game plan is to get a kH and gH test kit, adjust the kH based on those results. Keep my temp as is, fast my fish for the next couple of days, keep my salt at 1tsp/10g.

 

 How often and how much should I be doing with wc right now? I just did about 80% tonight.

 

Edit: I love that I'm trying to grow good bacteria! I recently had to grow some nasty bacteria at work for a culture sensitivity for one of my class projects, this is much more stressful but hopefully much more satisfying result. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by ETF_Ava

[jmetzger72]

What specifically are you treating with the Metronidazole?

[EdgarTheFish]

Nothing specifically, I don't have an extra tank and started treating when I added the oranda to my tank. My uncle's tank had no lid and my cat's have proven themselves to be successful fishermen, so when I inherited his oranda I wanted to treat as a prevention. 

[fantailfan1]

Does your tap water consistently have 1 ppm ammonia or ? 

 

WCs will be based on your water parameters.  Test ammonia and nitrite tomorrow, post results here and we will let you know how much water to change.

 

How long have you been treating with metro?

[EdgarTheFish]

I treated for the first 3 days that I had the oranda, did a 75% WC and then started treating again two days ago when he seemed to be getting worse with his floating in case the first dose wasn't long enough. So the tank was treated April: 7th 8th and 9th with a WC on the 9th (pm) and the 19th and 20th and 21st with a wc tonight. I also did 50% WC every 3 days since the 7th and had one planned for tomorrow but did it early at around 80% of the tank b/c of the nitrites tonight. 

 

edit: I don't know about my tap water, I just moved here so I'll have to keep testing it to find out if it fluctuates. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by ETF_Ava

[jmetzger72]

I treated for the first 3 days that I had the oranda, did a 75% WC and then started treating again two days ago when he seemed to be getting worse with his floating in case the first dose wasn't long enough. So the tank was treated April: 7th 8th and 9th with a WC on the 9th (pm) and the 19th and 20th and 21st with a wc tonight. I also did 50% WC every 3 days since the 7th and had one planned for tomorrow but did it early at around 80% of the tank b/c of the nitrites tonight. 

 

edit: I don't know about my tap water, I just moved here so I'll have to keep testing it to find out if it fluctuates. 

Okay, so Metronidazole is used specifically for Hexamita and internal infections.  It is not really a broad spectrum antibiotic and is usually used in conjunction with a gram negative antibiotic such as Kanaplex to create a broad spectrum antibiotic combo.  It should also be used for a uninterrupted period of about 14 days to really be effective.  Using it intermittently can create bacterial resistance and make things worse.  I don't think it is what you need for the slime patch.

[EdgarTheFish]

Ok, I didn't add it to the tank tonight and I'll be doing a lot more WCs it looks like so I'll nix that unless the fish really needs it. We use it at the clinic for dogs with bacterial infections in the GI tract as a broad spectrum tx, and I knew we used it before for one of the bettas so I assumed I could use it as a general kick for the tank when adding the new fish and again when he got floaty. Thank you all so much for the useful info. I will definitely update my parameters tomorrow asap. 

[jmetzger72]

Ok, I didn't add it to the tank tonight and I'll be doing a lot more WCs it looks like so I'll nix that unless the fish really needs it. We use it at the clinic for dogs with bacterial infections in the GI tract as a broad spectrum tx, and I knew we used it before for one of the bettas so I assumed I could use it as a general kick for the tank when adding the new fish and again when he got floaty. Thank you all so much for the useful info. I will definitely update my parameters tomorrow asap. 

Yes, it's a great choice for anaerobic infections of the gut and hole in the head and is good to have on hand.  Kanaplex and Furan-2 are better for external infections

[EdgarTheFish]

I'll get there Jared! This stuff's pretty interesting. I spend hours in lab every day, they are starting to let techs specialize in different areas of veterinary profession, I'm still working on my certification but once I have that, we'll see.  

[EdgarTheFish]

This morning when I woke up the oranda was bottom sitting a little bit, he's nice and active now but he usually doesn't rest at the bottom. 

 

Ph: 7.6/ high range 7.4 

ammo 0.25ppm

nitrite 5.0ppm

nitrate 20ppm 

 

I'm off to the store in about an hour to get kh/gh kit and more prime for another WC. how big of a WC should I do today? The white patch on my moor is also not as thick this morning. 

[Kayla102968]

Good morning Ava .

You need to do as close to a 100% or 100% change as quickly as you can. Or back to back water changes until you get your nitrites down to 0. Did your water go in last night at a pH of 8.8? If so, I would start putting baking soda in. It is falling awfully quickly and could be stressing out your fish as well as the high nitrites being really bad.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Kayla102968