Jump to content

Splain this to me Lusy,


mickeyrom

Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

I have two adult comets (one is a shubunkin, but that's just a color variation) in a 40 B right now.  It's a holding tank for them while I'm treating them with dips.  They are  quite comfortable in there, although they were bothered by those transparent walls for the first week, since they've been in a pond for four years.  

 

If a fish is in a 3 foot long tank, it can't swim much more than a couple of feet before it has to turn around no matter how long it is.  Adult goldfish don't zip around like the kids do.  Fish biologists describe them as a sedentary species. It's not like they sit on the bottom, they are usually moving, but very slowly.  After all, if you go fast you might miss seeing something edible.

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 85
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Regular Member

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

 

They can express discomfort pretty well, as well as beg with the best dog. All a single goldfish will want to do is interact with you and your wife. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

 

They can express discomfort pretty well, as well as beg with the best dog. All a single goldfish will want to do is interact with you and your wife. 

 

All she wants is food. She knows that one of us gives her pellets or peas, or whatever, but when the food stops, she leaves. As a dog lover, it is really hard to compare a fish to a dog. Try cuddling a fish. It just is not the same. I felt bad when Goldie died, but I still miss our dog who died last year. Is this heresy to the fishy people?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

 

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

 

They can express discomfort pretty well, as well as beg with the best dog. All a single goldfish will want to do is interact with you and your wife. 

 

All she wants is food. She knows that one of us gives her pellets or peas, or whatever, but when the food stops, she leaves. As a dog lover, it is really hard to compare a fish to a dog. Try cuddling a fish. It just is not the same. I felt bad when Goldie died, but I still miss our dog who died last year. Is this heresy to the fishy people?

 

If she gets food, of course she will go away and look for more. It's goldfish behavior.

I find that my fish, after getting used to my hand being in the aquarium, will come up and request a little pat or rub themselves against my arm, or nibble me. I even had an Oranda awhile back that would shove his face into my palm and rub it against that. He also was known to allow me or my significant other to rub his tummy. I can easily liken goldfish to dogs in terms of their begging and general behavior, physical interaction included if you put time into gaining their trust and interacting with them. 

 

Basically, everything to do with goldfish is about putting the right time and effort in. However, that's the same with any and all pets. There really is no 'set it and forget it' kind of live animal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

 

 

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

 

They can express discomfort pretty well, as well as beg with the best dog. All a single goldfish will want to do is interact with you and your wife. 

 

All she wants is food. She knows that one of us gives her pellets or peas, or whatever, but when the food stops, she leaves. As a dog lover, it is really hard to compare a fish to a dog. Try cuddling a fish. It just is not the same. I felt bad when Goldie died, but I still miss our dog who died last year. Is this heresy to the fishy people?

 

If she gets food, of course she will go away and look for more. It's goldfish behavior.

I find that my fish, after getting used to my hand being in the aquarium, will come up and request a little pat or rub themselves against my arm, or nibble me. I even had an Oranda awhile back that would shove his face into my palm and rub it against that. He also was known to allow me or my significant other to rub his tummy. I can easily liken goldfish to dogs in terms of their begging and general behavior, physical interaction included if you put time into gaining their trust and interacting with them. 

 

Basically, everything to do with goldfish is about putting the right time and effort in. However, that's the same with any and all pets. There really is no 'set it and forget it' kind of live animal.

 

LOL, I knew you would not agree with me. That's OK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

LOL, I knew you would not agree with me. That's OK

 

 

Well, I did hint to being able to compare them in my original post. :)

 

You'll learn more as you do more, or as you ask more questions here and understand more about the fish. Another thing that takes time. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Chelsea, consider this. Dogs can pulls sleds, they can work as police dogs, as military dogs, they can herd sheep or whatever they are trained for. Some can predict upcoming seizures, when soldiers go away and return years later, their dogs remember them and go bonkers when they see them at the door.....I won't go on because they work with us and love us and sometimes they die for us. Can you really compare a fish with that? Maybe Flipper might, but dolphins are mammals, aren't they. I'm gonna get banned from Koko...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

They're not like fish in the physical sense as you obviously cannot watch tv with your fish on the couch.

They CAN live just as long, learn our voices, our footsteps, our faces, our routines, and even become physical in some cases.

I have a one-eyed koimet who I would very easily compare to a puppy. I have to remind myself not to make eye contact at times, otherwise she will go crazy and expect something, making all sorts of loud snapping sounds with her huge mouth. :doh11:

She also, oddly enough, will rub the eye-less side of her face against me...excitedly. :idont

She's not my dog, but I still love her. I can't take my fish on a run like I do with my three-legged service dog even at the ripe age of nearly 13y, but I don't mind. I like Val as a fish, I like my Amber as a dog. I'll care for them both with whatever they need that is logical for our budget and their best interest.

Some people buy their dog raw diets, some people buy their dogs grain-free hollistic foods (we do, but she has a big issue with grain.. They have grain free even at grocery stores now for good prices!!!), some people must have THE VERY BEST, some people just buy whatever sounds good at the grocery store and fits their budget/expectations.

Dog, fish, bird, alligator, provide what they need and what you can work with.

Edited by Chai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Sorry for all the edits, I'm having a huge language issue right now!

Last line was also intended as aside from basics, THEN provide what you can.

Edited by Chai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Fish are a much lower on the food chain. (no pun intended) As a species, they will eat almost anything they can get into their mouth. They are cannibals, aren't they? I am fond of our fish, because I love all animals, fish included. I know the difference in a relationship with a mammal or a fish or a reptile. We have owned a Tortoise and box turtles. I cried when one of those baby turtles that you used to be able to buy at the dime store died. Because we love a fish or another species, it does not put them all on the same level, as far as intelligence, or the level of interaction, or how they love us , or how they interact with others of their species. Dogs can and do mourn when their owners, or even doggie friends die, I have seen that. Fish? If they are in a tank which has a dead fish, they likely will munch on it. I am fond of all of our fish, all 9 of them, but I don't think that I can love them as I love our Missy, or Joey, or the departed Fred and Rio.

Now that Koko's GF forum has made me feel guilty for not treating our GF as family members, I will do more WC for all 3 of our tanks, but the 40 should be fine with what I have mentioned being as there is one fish in it. I mean Gracie, of course. BTW, GF are no friendlier than some Mollies I have had, and Bettas can have personalities, but Zebras and Cories despite being very cute, have no interest in humans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Now that Koko's GF forum has made me feel guilty for not treating our GF as family members, I will do more WC for all 3 of our tanks, but the 40 should be fine with what I have mentioned being as there is one fish in it. I mean Gracie, of course. BTW, GF are no friendlier than some Mollies I have had, and Bettas can have personalities, but Zebras and Cories despite being very cute, have no interest in humans.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way. If it makes you feel any better I'm somewhat the same. I've never known how to classify fish, hasn't really mattered what species I've kept. I think for the most part I have considered them family insofar they live in the home we've made, my brother and parents interact with them and like seeing them, they have names, I care for them, etc, but they certainly aren't anthropomorphised to the extent my dogs are. I'll always love fish, enjoy watching their little personalities, get sad when they get sick or die, but unlike my dogs, they never transcend being fish and the subsequent relationship—they don't become an honorary brother, sister, son or daughter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Chelsea, consider this. Dogs can pulls sleds, they can work as police dogs, as military dogs, they can herd sheep or whatever they are trained for. Some can predict upcoming seizures, when soldiers go away and return years later, their dogs remember them and go bonkers when they see them at the door.....I won't go on because they work with us and love us and sometimes they die for us. Can you really compare a fish with that? Maybe Flipper might, but dolphins are mammals, aren't they. I'm gonna get banned from Koko...

Yes. I can compare my fish with that. I can compare every goldfish I have ever had with that, including the ones i had before I was on Koko's. Behaviorally, they can be compared to dogs. 

 

My fish greet me at the door when I enter the room by rushing to the side of the tank closest to that door. They know their names. They know certain words: 'hungry' means food, they will start doing a feed-me dance, 'no' means stop what you're doing, 'turn around' means turn in the opposite direction, among others. They come when called, and only the one I call comes. They trust me enough to hand-feed. These things are things I am able to train of them, and they will remember them for months on end without any practice after I am done. It has been scientifically proven that a goldfish has a memory of 3 months if the memory itself is not exercised, longer if the memory is exercised. People have even made little training kits for goldfish. They definitely are not stupid animals.

 

The most major thing I see with all of your cases, Allan, is that you haven't had experience enough to understand the animal and what the animal requires to live a healthy and happy life. You seem to show that you really don't like your Gracie because she is not something you can just 'set and forget' like your tropical fish, since she needs much more work and space to be healthy and happy. To the people on Koko's, the one thing that we understand is that these fish aren't much like any other fish that we could keep. If you treat her like what she is, you'll learn about a whole lot of the things that everyone's telling you and you're blowing off as fluff. It's understanding of the animal that creates the love for them, not an obsession creating any false understanding. 

 

My :twocents. Of course, you'll probably just tl;dr this as well. 

Edited by ChelseaM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

As someone who loves both fish and dogs, and who has a dog, I have an extreme and visceral reaction to the statement that fish and dogs are the same. They simply are not.

Let's put it really crudely: I might be willing to give my fish away, or even sell them, but you would have to kill me to take Dash.

The fact that I consider them that way by no means says anything about how they should be cared. I would like to think that all my animals are beyond spoiled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

They certainly are not dogs, nope. :)

I was not trying to change your mind, Alan. Just making a comparison with they behaviour.

I have mourned the loss of my fish, but the loss of my dearly departed cats still gets me to this day.

Like with Alex, you'd most likely have to kill me to get me to give up my cats and my dog. :hide:

But considering no ones taking any of them away, let the love continue. :lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

We all definitely know all your animals are spoiled, Alex. :teehee

 

My point isn't, nor has it ever been, that they are 'the same.' Like I said in the above post, "Behaviorally, they can be compared to dogs."

 

I bet we all feel the same way about dogs and cats, regarding how attached we are. :( They'll have to pry me away from my 14 year old mix when she has to be put down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

Now that Koko's GF forum has made me feel guilty for not treating our GF as family members, I will do more WC for all 3 of our tanks, but the 40 should be fine with what I have mentioned being as there is one fish in it. I mean Gracie, of course. BTW, GF are no friendlier than some Mollies I have had, and Bettas can have personalities, but Zebras and Cories despite being very cute, have no interest in humans.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way. If it makes you feel any better I'm somewhat the same. I've never known how to classify fish, hasn't really mattered what species I've kept. I think for the most part I have considered them family insofar they live in the home we've made, my brother and parents interact with them and like seeing them, they have names, I care for them, etc, but they certainly aren't anthropomorphised to the extent my dogs are. I'll always love fish, enjoy watching their little personalities, get sad when they get sick or die, but unlike my dogs, they never transcend being fish and the subsequent relationship—they don't become an honorary brother, sister, son or daughter.

 

I can agree with that, completely. Once you name them, then you are giving them a personality.Only Gracie the GF and Pink the Betta have names.The other 7 are nameless little critters that just swim around in total ignorance of their place in the family or in the universe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

We all definitely know all your animals are spoiled, Alex. :teehee

My point isn't, nor has it ever been, that they are 'the same.' Like I said in the above post, "Behaviorally, they can be compared to dogs."

I bet we all feel the same way about dogs and cats, regarding how attached we are. :( They'll have to pry me away from my 14 year old mix when she has to be put down.

Chelsea,

Your science education and knowledge should tell you differently. Behaviorally, they are NOT the same. Even assuming that all goldfish can do all the things that you've described your fish can do, that is still a far cry from some of the things that dogs, who actually are co-evolving with us, can do.

In so many ways, one might compare dogs to a small 2.5 year old child in terms of emotions

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience/32883

I don't think that the science will support anything remotely close to that with fish. We might all want to think that they can, but I think that reality is just a tad different. For now.

Edited by dnalex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

We all definitely know all your animals are spoiled, Alex. :teehee

My point isn't, nor has it ever been, that they are 'the same.' Like I said in the above post, "Behaviorally, they can be compared to dogs."

I bet we all feel the same way about dogs and cats, regarding how attached we are. :( They'll have to pry me away from my 14 year old mix when she has to be put down.

Chelsea,

You know better than that. Behaviorally, they are NOT the same. Even assuming that all goldfish can do all the things that you've described your fish can do, that is still a far cry from some of the things that dogs, who actually are co-evolving with us, can do.

In so many ways, one might compare dogs to a small 2.5 year old child in terms of emotions

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience/32883

I don't think that the science will support anything remotely close to that with fish. We might all want to think that they can, but I think that reality is just a tad different. For now.

 

Alex,  again, I never used 'the same.'  'Similar' doesn't mean 'the same.' 

 

Similar: adj.- Resembling without being identical.  

 

We can say that the behaviors have a resemblance. And yes, we can say they aren't identical. I never claimed them to be. :) However, it's rather easy to make a comparison. You've read several just here, and not only from me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

I have two adult comets (one is a shubunkin, but that's just a color variation) in a 40 B right now.  It's a holding tank for them while I'm treating them with dips.  They are  quite comfortable in there, although they were bothered by those transparent walls for the first week, since they've been in a pond for four years.  

 

If a fish is in a 3 foot long tank, it can't swim much more than a couple of feet before it has to turn around no matter how long it is.  Adult goldfish don't zip around like the kids do.  Fish biologists describe them as a sedentary species. It's not like they sit on the bottom, they are usually moving, but very slowly.  After all, if you go fast you might miss seeing something edible.

 

Sharon, what else can the fish do? Complain to their owner? They just keep swimming, and hope for the best i.e. more food.

 

 

It's probably insignificant, Allan, but I've read this over and over and can't figure out how what you said relates to what I said.  Why should they complain to their owner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Goldfish can be trained, just as humans can be trained. Goldfish are capable of memory, and so are humans. I don't know if there is anything instructive to conclude from these observations.

It's easy to make a comparison, but that doesn't mean we should. In my experience, when it's easy to do something is when we should be a little bit skeptical...this is especially true with our penchant to anthropomorphize everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I have spent a good part of my life as a serious "doggy" person. My daughter has been a dog handler, owner and rarely a breeder of several breeds. Her now deceased Shiba Inu won almost 400 breeds and 70 some group placements and 10 group ones.( I wanted to establish my bona fides) What is amazing how dog people and fish people are similar in they talk about their animals or fish. I forwarded to Lynda, my daughter, some of the posts on FB when somebody's fish has died. She said," just like in the dog world,LOL"  Sometimes there are more condolences than when family members die. When Mickey, who was well known in the Shiba world died there must have been 100 posts . Same thing on GF keepers, when someone lost a GF, which happens failrly often.

I have read GF posts about "nice tails" just like in dogs. Dogs are judged on type and soundness. Movement is very important. I wonder how GF are judged. I assume color is very important.My favorite sticker which I have seen on Vans full of crates... "missing husband and dog. Reward for return of dog".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

You're right that at times it can be something to be skeptical on, but other times it leads to things like the dog study you mentioned earlier. 

 

 

Allan, goldfish also have standards for shows. It's neat. There are goldfish associations around the world that have breed standards and everything.

Edited by ChelseaM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

You're right that at times it can be something to be skeptical on, but other times it leads to things like the dog study you mentioned earlier.

I think you are confusing skepticism with disinterest.

I look at almost everything with skepticism, simply because that helps to ensure that I don't readily just believe something because I just want to believe it, and have no other basis.

I would argue that it's actually skepticism that leads to the sorts of studies that mean anything. People who think that they already know something, or are so convinced of it, either don't bother to perform these studies, or they won't do a good job of it. This is what "preaching to the choir" refers to.

So, what I am saying is that I don't disbelieve you, but I am saying that as of the present, the current biological knowledge does not support the idea that goldfish and dogs are behaviorally similar, or similarly complex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

 

You're right that at times it can be something to be skeptical on, but other times it leads to things like the dog study you mentioned earlier.

I think you are confusing skepticism with disinterest.

I look at almost everything with skepticism, simply because that helps to ensure that I don't readily just believe something because I just want to believe it, and have no other basis.

I would argue that it's actually skepticism that leads to the sorts of studies that mean anything. People who think that they already know something, or are so convinced of it, either don't bother to perform these studies, or they won't do a good job of it. This is what "preaching to the choir" refers to.

So, what I am saying is that I don't disbelieve you, but I am saying that as of the present, the current biological knowledge does not support the idea that goldfish and dogs are behaviorally similar, or similarly complex.

 

Not confusing it at all. Disinterest wouldn't lead to the dog study, skepticism would. I'm on the same page as you regarding that. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...