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run.without.raincoats

Prazi Pro and water changes

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Hi, new fish keeper here 

I have some new goldfish in a partially cycled 10 gallon tank (I wasn't expecting to get them so I didn't have any pre cycled tank ready, it's been spiking less so I think it's starting to settle into a cycle). I'm keeping them in it temporarily until I get a 50 gallon next week. To keep ammonia down I've been doing twice daily partial water changes. This morning I dosed the whole tank with Prazi Pro suspecting they have flukes. I feel like I should be continuing the water changes to keep quality up for the fish but I'm not sure if that would dilute or disrupt the Prazi? If I was to do a partial change should I add a partial dose to the new water? Or should I skip the changes for a few days?

(I have seen the prazi protocols listed here but since my tank isn't fully established I'm wary of leaving it untouched for five days like they suggest)

 

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I'd wait until you have them in the 50 to dose the Prazi. It gets removed whenever you do a WC. How quickly are ammonia and nitrite rising and how high are they getting?

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I don't think I can wait that long, one is really very sick and two others are showing signs too now. My tests today were showing ammonia pretty close to 0 (I think there's some in the tap water because even testing right out of the faucet I don't get 0) and 0 nitrite, which I'm glad about. But now the nitrates are going up.

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Yeah nitrates this morning were up to like 20 ppm. Ammonia a bit over .25, nitrite 0, the water is kind of cloudy. I had to take out a big chunk of the filter because the carbon in it would have messed things up and I don't think the piece that's left works as well alone. They're all clamping their fins and breathing kind of fast. What if I do like a 20% change and add a few drops of prazi to the new water before adding it? Or are they ok? Sorry I've never had fish I'm just extra nervous because of the really sick one

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What test kit are you using?  How long have you had the fish?

 

With 4 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank that is not cycled and all of them showing symptoms, I have to  wonder if your tests are working.  It sounds like you have a water quality issue.   Please do a  large, preferably 100%, water change.  Don't bother with prazi at this time. 

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It's the API dropper tests, brand new from the aquarium store. They've been here a week, I got them all straight out of a dirty 1 gallon bowl so I'm not surprised they're sick. As far as water quality I test everything daily, more like two or three a day while they've been sick. There's only one that's really very ill, but I was told if one had it they probably all did and I should treat the whole tank.

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How much water are you changing daily?  Do you test immediately before a water change? 

 

If you want us to help determine what treatment your fish need, please fill out this form.

 

Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

 

Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank)
* Nitrite Level(Tank)
* Nitrate level(Tank)
* Ammonia Level(Tap)
* Nitrite Level(Tap)
* Nitrate level(Tap)
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

 

Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
* Water temperature?
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
* How often do you change the water and how much?
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
* How many fish in the tank and their size?
* What kind of water additives or conditioners?
* What do you feed your fish and how often?
* Any new fish added to the tank?
* Any medications added to the tank?
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

 

If you are absolutely certain that Prazipro is the only thing your fish need, please change 5 gallons of water once daily, adding 1/4 teaspoon of Prazi to the new water.

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They were in an extremely dirty 1 gallon bowl for several days before I took them, I don't know what store they came from before that or what condition they were in before the bowl. I was told by a fish person I know to treat for flukes as a preventative measure anyway, and the more I read about fluke symptoms the more it sounded like my fishies. I dosed the prazi and gave them salt dips today to kill off anything else and strip off some of the slime gunk.  I've been researching like mad, reading all the stories I can find that sound like what's going on and what treatments they used, and trying to cobble together a way to treat them but I have to be honest I just don't have much experience. If pictures would help I have some from the day I got them up till now to show the progression of what's been happening.

 

I do test right before each change. These are the levels as of today. I'm still getting the hang of reading the test colors so some of them I put as a range if I couldn't pin down one exactly

 

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) <0.25ppm 
* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
* Nitrate level(Tank) 10-20 ppm
* Ammonia Level(Tap) <0.25ppm
* Nitrite Level(Tap)  0.25ppm
* Nitrate level(Tap) 10 ppm
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) Wow the coloring on this card is weird. Ok It's between 7.3-7.6 I think. It could be higher. I think I need a new pH tester this is an old one given to me by someone.

Sorry I don't have tests for hardness or chloramine
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7

 

Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops, all brand new except the pH tester
* Water temperature? 68-70 F
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10 gallons, about a week
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Tetra Whisper 20 gallon 105 gph (main cartridge with carbon removed yesterday as per Prazi instructions)
* How often do you change the water and how much? Twice a day partial change, maybe 30 or 40%?
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? This morning, about 20%
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 4, 2-3 inches long
* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime (API dechlorinater and cycle starter used last week but I don't think there's much left with all the water changes)
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Aqueon Goldfish granules, a couple of fresh peas last night. I've only fed them a couple of times over the last week to try and keep the water clean
* Any new fish added to the tank? They're all new
* Any medications added to the tank? 1/2 tsp Prazi Pro yesterday, plus a few drops added to the fresh water I put in this morning
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Prazipro, in about 24 hours now. Quick salt dip for everyone this morning, two of them got 5 minutes and two got 3 or 4 min. I pulled them early cause they seemed more distressed. All of them rested for a bit in a clean quarantine tub until they were acting normally and then I put them back in the main tank. 
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

Aileron: Lots of black spots appearing all over his sides (possible healing ammonia burns from the bowl?), he started bright orange with black fins and over the last week probably about two thirds of the orange is gone, thick blotchy slime coat.

Lilac: Frays on dorsal and caudal fins (hasn't gotten any new ones, I think it might be injuries from living in the bowl)

Remy: Black ammonia spots appearing on some fin tips.

Ludiyan: Just two or three ammonia spots, thick slime coat
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Everyone is completely clamped except Remy, Aileron has had times where he sits on the bottom or in the plants and then all of a sudden darts around really fast. Right now he's hanging out in the hide, still a little lethargic but not as bad. He's also breathing a lot faster than the others, mouth open. Eating I'm not totally sure since I haven't fed them much, but there was a good bit of green poop in there today so they definitely got some peas.

 

Thank you all so so much for the help, let me know if there's any other info that could be helpful. Oh wow thank you I'm so glad I don't have to figure this out alone

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Thank you for the info.

 

What concentration of salt did you use for the dip?  Did they shed slime coat after the treatment?

 

Does their tank have gravel or other substrate?  What about ornaments?  It's a good idea to have a bare tank with nothing but a filter and possibly an airstone while you are treating fish.

 

You are wise to feed lightly when the tank is not fully cycled.  Aqueon is not a high grade food, although there are far worse.  It will do for now, and peas are a good supplement.  Next time you get fish food you may want to upgrade.  Omega One and New Life Spectrum are good foods that you can find in most pet/fish stores.  If they don't have a great appetite, you can feed them just peas until they are feeling better.

 

We like to use a continuous salt bath while treating with Prazi.  At the least, it is soothing to the fish.  I recommend you use 0.1% salt in the tank to start with.  This is one teaspoon of salt per gallon of water.

 

Now let's get to the water changes.  If you don't have a 5 gallon bucket, get one -- or better yet get two -- one for fresh water and one for used water.  It makes life very easy.  Fill the bucket with water and put it near the tank.  Add the standard dose of Prime, 5 teaspoons of salt, and 1/4 teaspoon of Prazipro.  Tomorrow, remove 5 gallons of water from the tank and replace it with the contents of the bucket.  Then set up the bucket for the next day's change.  

 

Which Prazi schedule are you following?

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I used about a 3% salt solution. Two of them definitely shed. Also, I'll put the continuous bath so no more dips?

There is stuff in the tank but I can take it out, should I leave like a plant (plastic) in for them to hide under or not even that? As far as prazi, is one schedule any better than the other? I don't have any time constraints that would make either one harder. Ha that bucket system sounds much better than me lugging big pasta pots full of water back and forth ':). I'll get that tomorrow.

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I use the seven day schedule which has you doing the same thing each round on the same day of the week.  The five day schedule would confuse me.  

 

The salt bath and the dips have a different purpose, so you can do more dips if they look like they need it because of slime coat build up.  Leave at least two days between dips since they are rather rigorous.

 

When you get to the last day of prazi in the round, set up the next day's water with Prime and salt but no prazi.

 

If you want to leave a plastic plant in, that's fine.  The concern is to make the bottom of the tank easy to clean.

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Mixed progress, good news is everyone finished round 1! I'm ridiculously in love. I never thought fish had much personality but boy was I wrong! And watching them chew on peas is one of the most absurdly delightful things I've ever seen. Two are most definitely going to be alright. Lilac is eating like a fiend and I swear growing already and Remy astonishingly enough hasn't shown a single sign of distress or illness this whole time. The other two I'm a little more nervous about.

 

Aileron is basically a fully black fish now, poor baby. He had a couple of really good days, active, fins up, eating, he was looking good. Yesterday he started to dip again a bit. He's clamped again and more lethargic. He kind of just hangs up at the surface breathing air now and again (none of the others are showing any breathing difficulty so it's not an oxygen issue in the water). But he's responsive when I go over and he's been eating so I think he's going to keep fighting.

 

Ludi I'm really starting to worry about now. They looked fine at first but about two days ago he suddenly fell right into Aileron's pattern. All clamped up, isolating, blotchy slime, this morning I think he was flashing. He would dart really fast, like he was having some kind of spasm, and twist onto his side. I thought he couldn't control it at first but then I realized maybe he was trying to rub on the tank floor?

 

Anyway thought I'd give an update. I'm cautiously optimistic, I start round 2 on Friday and I'm hoping for the best. I can't say thank you enough to you guys for the help, I put all your instructions into one big document and printed it and stuck it up right next to the tank so I know what to do every day of every round. It's literally been a lifesaver for these guys 

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Rubbing against the sides/floor of the tank or other objects is called flashing and is a symptom of parasites.

 

If fish have a heavy infestation of flukes, they often show symptoms during the first round or two of prazi treatment because of irritation from all the dying flukes.

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You are getting great advice from shakaho. I just wanted to wish you and your fishies good energy as they go through the whole prazi protocol. :)

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Aileron didn't make it...

He wouldn't eat last night and wasn't swimming much. He would just lie there in the corner, although he would wake up and swim a bit if I went over or while I changed the water. I checked on him around 4 this afternoon and then went to sleep a little and came back and he was gone... Poor baby muffin. I was really hoping he would make it. I went and buried him under a pretty flowering tree right next to where I put Nibs last week. Oh poor little thing he was my favorite.

Anyway I still have three in there who are not in quite as bad shape. I'm going to change the water. I don't think he was in there long like that but just in case. Should I do a full 100% change? Or is a partial ok?

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That's what I would do too.  So sorry about Aileron. 

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I'm so sorry for your loss. RIP Aileron.

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AHA THE TANK IS HERE!!!! Finally, jeez I was going to cancel it otherwise it's been over two weeks since I ordered it. The three remaining fish are looking great, extra zippy, eating plenty, it's amazing to see the change! I only just finished round 2 of prazi and I think I'm going to go all the way through to the end, is that something I can do in the big tank or is it easier in the hospital tank? I still have to sanitize the thing and get it on a stand and all the filters set so it'll be a day or two anyway.

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Prazi is pretty expensive, which is the main reason for treating in a small tank.  Other than that, it's fine to use prazi in the new tank (which we need to see as soon as it's set up). :)

Edited by shakaho

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