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Help Please - Is this hole in the head?


Jim_D

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Test Results for the Following:

  • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) <5
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8
  • Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master
  • * Water temperature? 26 -27
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 120 gallon - Well established
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 4 x Eheim 2217 canisters
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% 3x per week (treating for Ich nearly two weeks)
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Two days ago/50%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 120 Gallon  7 Orandas around 2"-3"
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Running at 0.3% salt
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Hikari, Earthworms & Peas Lightly fed.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? All fish are new to tank (2.5 weeks)
  • * Any medications added to the tank? 0.3% salt
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Salt 0.3% will be two weeks on Wednesday
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Hole in Wen
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Fish seems pretty normal

 

 

Below are two videos taken a few days apart. The second one was taken this afternoon. Very hard to show the spot, but hopefully it shows the spot enough that someone will be able to offer me some help and advice.

 

Is this hole in the head?

 

We've been watching this for around maybe 5 days and thought it was getting better, but today it looks a little bigger and maybe a little redder.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llm80s7dZfs

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvpuuMYJ6lQ

 

This afternoons video -

 

 

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The fish are moving around a lot, which makes it difficult to tell if this is a wen ulcer or not. Could you please try for more up-close pictures? This is easy to do: Just catch the fish in a small container or in your hand and get some close-up shots of the wound site. 

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Hi Chelsea,

On the second video close to the end I held the fish in my hand and you can see the hole but it's blurry.

I'll try to get another close shot tomorrow, but it most definitely looks like an ulcer.

How fast can these grow? Are they contagious?

i have sent a report to the moderating team, for our discussion. thank you for providing the info and videos.

Thank you very much Helen.

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A couple of other questions to ask yourself after you get through these initial problems:  Are you running activated carbon on a regular basis?- And- what is your GH and KH on the aquarium?

 

-Running (freshly changed) activated carbon continuously can cause long term complications like hole in the head disease. 

 

-Goldfish like hard water that has a good mineral base- too soft of water can open them up to being more susceptible to bacterial attacks.  I had an issue with ulcers and weird cysts on goldfish that I'd had for over a year- because I was not maintaining a high enough GH. (12 dh or higher for Goldfish)

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A couple of other questions to ask yourself after you get through these initial problems:  Are you running activated carbon on a regular basis?- And- what is your GH and KH on the aquarium?

 

-Running (freshly changed) activated carbon continuously can cause long term complications like hole in the head disease. 

 

-Goldfish like hard water that has a good mineral base- too soft of water can open them up to being more susceptible to bacterial attacks.  I had an issue with ulcers and weird cysts on goldfish that I'd had for over a year- because I was not maintaining a high enough GH. (12 dh or higher for Goldfish)

7.8 with no additives is within the most accepted range for keeping goldfish, and Jim didn't list any additives to keep the PH stable, so I think that the GH and KH are fine. A sign of a weak GH or KH is an unstable PH.

 

Also, with carbon the only risk I know of that causes the development of HiTH is running it when it is not adequately changed. This gives time to build up the bacterial problem. However, it would be good to know if Jim is running carbon in his filters. This will definitely help in more than one way. :)

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Here are some  links- speaking to the theory of using activated carbon and its contribution to HitH disease.  

 

They speak  to carbon stripping out essential minerals from the water, and not with contributing bad bacteria to the water.  Activated carbon that is left in the tank makes a good home for bio filtration.  My feeling is not to use it unless its got a specific purpose- like removing old medication from a system.

 

 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2586

 

 

http://pets.thenest.com/need-change-charcoal-aquarium-filter-12767.html

Charcoal filters are generally regarded as safe, but some controversy surrounds their long-term use. Charcoal filters are great at sucking bad stuff out of the water, but they can also absorb trace minerals that are important for healthy fish and plants. Lack of certain nutrients in the water can lead to head and lateral line erosion, a condition also called hole-in-the-head disease that can be fatal to fish. Discus fish and oscars are particularly susceptible. Having a carbon filter doesn’t mean your fish will get the disease, but over-filtration of aquarium water can be a contributing factor. Charcoal will also suck up most medication, so remove this form of filter before medicating your tank.

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Here are some  links- speaking to the theory of using activated carbon and its contribution to HitH disease.  

 

They speak  to carbon stripping out essential minerals from the water, and not with contributing bad bacteria to the water.  Activated carbon that is left in the tank makes a good home for bio filtration.  My feeling is not to use it unless its got a specific purpose- like removing old medication from a system.

 

 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2586

 

 

http://pets.thenest.com/need-change-charcoal-aquarium-filter-12767.html

Charcoal filters are generally regarded as safe, but some controversy surrounds their long-term use. Charcoal filters are great at sucking bad stuff out of the water, but they can also absorb trace minerals that are important for healthy fish and plants. Lack of certain nutrients in the water can lead to head and lateral line erosion, a condition also called hole-in-the-head disease that can be fatal to fish. Discus fish and oscars are particularly susceptible. Having a carbon filter doesn’t mean your fish will get the disease, but over-filtration of aquarium water can be a contributing factor. Charcoal will also suck up most medication, so remove this form of filter before medicating your tank.

Here is a quote from one of the pages you listed: 

Some people feel that the carbon may remove some of the beneficial minerals found in the water leading to an increased incidence in the disease. At the same time, the mineral imbalance may be caused by an increase in Hexamita organisms in the intestine, which may lead to malabsorption and a decrease in the absorption of the needed vitamins and minerals.

 

We know that the disease in freshwater fish is associated with the Hexamita bacteria. Hexamita bacteria like water that is not pristine. One thing commonly associated with the use of carbon is the belief that carbon will clear water. The smells and discoloration of water that carbon seems to clear up can be the signs of deteriorating water quality. 

 

Carbon in general has been known to contribute to susceptibility if not adequately rinsed, as Jay Hemdal of the Toledo Aquarium found out. However, we can't say that using it in general is the problem. Using it inadequately (not rinsing before, leaving it in too long to break down) is the most major problem based on his findings, which show that the fish with the disease had carbon dust on them. The dust caused irritation, making the fish more susceptible, but not causing the disease. 

 

But.. this is kinda putting the thread off-track, since a D&D thread really should be for D&D!  :sorry:: Another thread would be a great way to continue this conversation, though. 

Edited by ChelseaM
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Thank you all for the replies and please excuse the delay in getting back to the thread. It's 9.00am Tuesday morning in Oz and we have the grandkids on Tuesdays and one is 2 and one is 4 !

 

Helen, I have an assortment of meds, but they all have expiration dates of between 2007 - 2009 I bought them all back in 2004 when I got back into freshwater and had Dutch planted aquariums. The majority are still sealed and unopened. Photo below.

 

I do not run carbon.

 

I don't know off the top of my head what the gH and KH readings on my water are, those test kits are long gone. I do know that they are within an acceptable range for keeping goldfish.

 

 

The hole on the fish looks pretty much the same today, no better, but looks no worse. I couldn't say it was healing though. I can try to get a better photo later on today if you think it will help in a diagnosis of what the fish is suffering from.

 

16910119445_94d10f5f85_b.jpg

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Thank you very much Helen.

 

Our local council has a chemical cleanup/collection day sometime in June. I'll store them and dispose of them then.

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Here's some photos taken minutes ago.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like there is another hole starting and maybe even the start of a third hole :(

 

 

16291639433_fbbb324006_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

16291641603_f1042e6814_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

16704327767_0623f9ff37_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

16723993488_2eeed89f40_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

16724244100_1cf1117bba_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

16885761576_813a91590e_b.jpg

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Yes Helen has been absolutely terrific Jared, the meds are well on there way by express post and should be here tomorrow.

 

Now just fingers crossed that they work and resolve this issue.

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