All 6 Orandas bottom sitting. Please help.

[bagh]

A few days ago, I got six orandas from a random petstore. Since day 1, they have showed signs of tiredness and bottom sitting. Some fishes more, some less than the other. I tried giving them rest by keeping the tank in darkness after evening. I put them in Acriflavine (Mild bactericidal and fungicidal) and 0.1% salt for 2 days. Post 2 days, I removed the Acriflavin and increased the salt dosage to 0.2%. They eat, but not much enthusiastic about food.

 

After 2 more days, when there was hardly any sign of improvement, I removed the salt and stared treating them with Amoxycillin in the tank water at 250mg per 15 gallons of water (as mentioned in the Fish Mox product.) A day passed, they are bottom sitting worse than the day before.

 

What should I do now? Please help. I am completely clueless.

 

Quarantine Tank: 15 gallons.

Fish size: 2 inch each, with tail.

Water changed: every 24 hours, 80%. No additive added. Water is free from Chlorine.

Filter: 500LPH top filter.

Ammonia: Detectable faintly after 24 hours.

Nitrate, Nitrite: Undetected.

Food: Hikari Oranda Gold, twice a day.

 

 

 

[Helen]

they need way more space. even for 80% wc daily.. i would have them in a minimum 40 gallons with 80% daily wc and feeding only every other day. they also need an airstone. what temp is the water?

 

i am not a fan of chopping and changing medicines or treating with antibiotics at the first sign of trouble. antibiotics must run for 14 days once commenced. antibiotics do not make a change to infection in 24-48 hours, this is why the course needs to run slowly but surely. even for humans, a doctor will not give you an antibiotic miracle pill to cure you overnight, that's why our medicines are sold to us to cover a treatment plan of minimum 14 days. 

 

the first treatments we qt fish with is salt and prazi. so going by the duration of treatments mentioned above, you are on day 5 of owning these fish. have you considered prazi treatments?

 

i don't know anything about the medicines you are using on your fish, so i cannot comment any further. please get them more space.

[bagh]

they need way more space. even for 80% wc daily.. i would have them in a minimum 40 gallons with 80% daily wc and feeding only every other day. they also need an airstone. what temp is the water?

 

i am not a fan of chopping and changing medicines or treating with antibiotics at the first sign of trouble. antibiotics must run for 14 days once commenced. antibiotics do not make a change to infection in 24-48 hours, this is why the course needs to run slowly but surely. even for humans, a doctor will not give you an antibiotic miracle pill to cure you overnight, that's why our medicines are sold to us to cover a treatment plan of minimum 14 days. 

 

the first treatments we qt fish with is salt and prazi. so going by the duration of treatments mentioned above, you are on day 5 of owning these fish. have you considered prazi treatments?

 

i don't know anything about the medicines you are using on your fish, so i cannot comment any further. please get them more space.

Thank you so much, Helen, for your ever-valuable opinion. Yes, they have an airstone, and the water temp is at ~26C.

 

I have no quarantine tank empty, but I shall try any method to give them space. Maybe in some other container. I haven't tried Prazi, because I am not sure about the Prazi dose, as also the presence of worms in the fish. Could you please tell me the dosage (how much Praziquantel in how much litres of water,) after which I shall follow dnalex's Prazi schedule? We get Praziquantel tablets for dogs.

 

Should I continue the antibiotic for 5-6 days, lest, I fear, any and all pathogens might become resistant to Amoxycillin? Or should I stop the antibiotics at once?

[Helen]

i have never treated fish with Amoxycillin, so i can't advise you on it's use. you will need to post a link to the prazi product.

[bagh]

This:

 

http://www.medindia.net/drug-price/praziquantel/distocide.htm

[Helen]

so how many mg of praziquantel is each tablet? 600mg? or is that the total for 8 tablets?

[bagh]

Each one has 600mg, hun.

[Helen]

i use 200mg for every 10 gallons, and this dose is very effective. you will need to cut them to size (cut them first, then crush them into powder) according to the volume you have the fish in. then follow alex's prazi schedule. i would consider gradually adding the salt back, increasing their water volume (use a nice big tub and aim for 40 gallons) and get some extra aeration in there (which will also circulate the water nicely).

 

i still cannot advise re the anitbiotic, but we need to refrain from assuming we require to treat with antibiotic if there are no real visible signs of infection.

 

bottom sitting and huddles in a corner could be due to that they are still unsettled and slightly stressed from environmental changes or other minor reasons.

[bagh]

i use 200mg for every 10 gallons, and this dose is very effective. you will need to cut them to size (cut them first, then crush them into powder) according to the volume you have the fish in. then follow alex's prazi schedule. i would consider gradually adding the salt back, increasing their water volume (use a nice big tub and aim for 40 gallons) and get some extra aeration in there (which will also circulate the water nicely).

 

i still cannot advise re the anitbiotic, but we need to refrain from assuming we require to treat with antibiotic if there are no real visible signs of infection.

 

bottom sitting and huddles in a corner could be due to that they are still unsettled and slightly stressed from environmental changes or other minor reasons.

Thanks so much, Helen. As always, your information is priceless.

 

I'm quitting the antibiotics. I do not care if it becomes resistant by the microbes; there are other antibiotics that'd work if there's an infection in future.

 

What amount of salt should I aim for right now, along with Prazi?

[Helen]

the usual. start at 0.1% then increase every 12 hours till you get to 0.3%.. observe during the 12 hours to see if they are ok for the next increase.

 

good luck and update us as often as you like/need

[bagh]

the usual. start at 0.1% then increase every 12 hours till you get to 0.3%.. observe during the 12 hours to see if they are ok for the next increase.

 

good luck and update us as often as you like/need

Thank you, wonderful lady!

I've moved them as 3+3 into two (15+15) gallon tanks. That's the best I could do at this moment, because I couldn't find a suitable 40 gallon tank.

Edited March 12, 2015 by bagho

[Chai]

I have seen several fish succumb to illness because Amoxicillin failed to treat the strength of their infection. Just as we are experiencing lack of ability with this medication now, they are as well. Moxi has been so overused since its discovery that prescribing it to someone is generally a "hope this works" nowadays, and I only really see it prescribed to kids with strep, which generally clears up on its own but is used just to boost the process.

When it's prescribed to adults, it seems to be in a really large dose (accompanied by huge pill) that manages to make you feel like you're going to expel your insides.

There are much better alternatives out there, for both us and them.

Acriflavine is a great medication (though not commonly used ) that I ALWAYS keep in my medicine cabinet. However, I never use it on its own but as a sidekick to something else.

Any more space you can get them is great.

You're in more than capable hands with Helen so I have nothing to add.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Chai

[DieselPlower]

i realize i will probably get beat over the head for this but those tiny fish are barely producing a detectabke amount of ammonia every 24 hours and as you can see they are all huddled together anyway so i dont know that a bigger tank would help. the fish look pretty ok to me. the one swimming was not clamping. as noted i wouldnt rush into treatments. give them time. and helen, your signature is massive on my phone. like, huge.

[DieselPlower]

so is Chais. what is this massive ribbon thing? too huge!

[LongfellowMN]

the ribbon thing is f'n annoying I will weigh in on that- I think it is spamvertising!  

 

As far as bottom sitting- I brought home Anchor Worms from a fish bought at a big box retailer.  The little monsters got in to my other resident fish's gills and mouths making them lethargic and bottom sit.  I treated with a very safe insecticide called Dimilin-X found on Ebay for $25- and the problem gone / done in 3 days.  Look in your fish's mouth and its outer body area for anything that looks hair like- not saying it is anchor worm- but be sure to rule them out.  And yes get a much bigger tank.

[bagh]

I have seen several fish succumb to illness because Amoxicillin failed to treat the strength of their infection. Just as we are experiencing lack of ability with this medication now, they are as well. Moxi has been so overused since its discovery that prescribing it to someone is generally a "hope this works" nowadays, and I only really see it prescribed to kids with strep, which generally clears up on its own but is used just to boost the process.

When it's prescribed to adults, it seems to be in a really large dose (accompanied by huge pill) that manages to make you feel like you're going to expel your insides.

There are much better alternatives out there, for both us and them.

Acriflavine is a great medication (though not commonly used ) that I ALWAYS keep in my medicine cabinet. However, I never use it on its own but as a sidekick to something else.

Any more space you can get them is great.

You're in more than capable hands with Helen so I have nothing to add.

Extremely informative post! That explains why we need to take 1800 mgs of Amoxycillin daily for some infections!

 

I've stopped administering them Amoxycillin.

 

Acriflavine is indeed very versatile. Covers a lot of infections. But I fear if overusing it might make most bacteria resistant, juts like antibiotics.

[bagh]

i realize i will probably get beat over the head for this but those tiny fish are barely producing a detectabke amount of ammonia every 24 hours and as you can see they are all huddled together anyway so i dont know that a bigger tank would help. the fish look pretty ok to me. the one swimming was not clamping. as noted i wouldnt rush into treatments. give them time. and helen, your signature is massive on my phone. like, huge.

 

 

the ribbon thing is f'n annoying I will weigh in on that- I think it is spamvertising!  

 

As far as bottom sitting- I brought home Anchor Worms from a fish bought at a big box retailer.  The little monsters got in to my other resident fish's gills and mouths making them lethargic and bottom sit.  I treated with a very safe insecticide called Dimilin-X found on Ebay for $25- and the problem gone / done in 3 days.  Look in your fish's mouth and its outer body area for anything that looks hair like- not saying it is anchor worm- but be sure to rule them out.  And yes get a much bigger tank.

 

 

Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge!

 

 

 

What it turns out is that, they have ich! Two have already succumbed to ich.

 

I've started treating 2+2 with two different medications in two different tanks. The more affected ones with Acriflavine+0.1% salt, the less affected ones with 0.3% salt. In addition to that, 5ml methylene blue in 25 litres as anti-ich bath for 30 mins.

 

Am I doing it right?

 

 

 

Please have a look at the video.

Edited March 14, 2015 by bagho

[Chai]

I have seen several fish succumb to illness because Amoxicillin failed to treat the strength of their infection. Just as we are experiencing lack of ability with this medication now, they are as well. Moxi has been so overused since its discovery that prescribing it to someone is generally a "hope this works" nowadays, and I only really see it prescribed to kids with strep, which generally clears up on its own but is used just to boost the process.

When it's prescribed to adults, it seems to be in a really large dose (accompanied by huge pill) that manages to make you feel like you're going to expel your insides.

There are much better alternatives out there, for both us and them.

Acriflavine is a great medication (though not commonly used ) that I ALWAYS keep in my medicine cabinet. However, I never use it on its own but as a sidekick to something else.

Any more space you can get them is great.

You're in more than capable hands with Helen so I have nothing to add.

Extremely informative post! That explains why we need to take 1800 mgs of Amoxycillin daily for some infections!

I've stopped administering them Amoxycillin.

Acriflavine is indeed very versatile. Covers a lot of infections. But I fear if overusing it might make most bacteria resistant, juts like antibiotics.

If they have ich (I'm blind as heck sorry!!! I think I could see it on their tails, though?), 27°C heat and 0.3% salt wifh daily WCs should knock it out in no time. I have a couple books with updated Ich sections that I could a look at, but I'm not sure if Acriflavine would do any better than the typical salt/heat.

They look thin (obviously from prior to your purchase ), but otherwise appear responsive. They have a very lovely red colour, wow!

Edited March 14, 2015 by Chai

[bagh]

 

 

I have seen several fish succumb to illness because Amoxicillin failed to treat the strength of their infection. Just as we are experiencing lack of ability with this medication now, they are as well. Moxi has been so overused since its discovery that prescribing it to someone is generally a "hope this works" nowadays, and I only really see it prescribed to kids with strep, which generally clears up on its own but is used just to boost the process.

When it's prescribed to adults, it seems to be in a really large dose (accompanied by huge pill) that manages to make you feel like you're going to expel your insides.

There are much better alternatives out there, for both us and them.

Acriflavine is a great medication (though not commonly used ) that I ALWAYS keep in my medicine cabinet. However, I never use it on its own but as a sidekick to something else.

Any more space you can get them is great.

You're in more than capable hands with Helen so I have nothing to add.

Extremely informative post! That explains why we need to take 1800 mgs of Amoxycillin daily for some infections!

I've stopped administering them Amoxycillin.

Acriflavine is indeed very versatile. Covers a lot of infections. But I fear if overusing it might make most bacteria resistant, juts like antibiotics.

If they have ich (I'm blind as heck sorry!!! I think I could see it on their tails, though?), 27°C heat and 0.3% salt wifh daily WCs should knock it out in no time. I have a couple books with updated Ich sections that I could a look at, but I'm not sure if Acriflavine would do any better than the typical salt/heat.

They look thin (obviously from prior to your purchase ), but otherwise appear responsive. They have a very lovely red colour, wow!

 

Thank you so much, Cat! Sadly, the fish in the 0.3% salt (I removed the other one because it showed distress) passed away of stroke. He was okay five minutes ago, but died suddenly.

 

I am treating the remaining three in Acriflavine and 0.1% salt + Methylene blue baths.

 

Fingers crossed.

[Reds12]

I'm so sorry to hear you lost some of them  Hopefully everything is on the upswing and the remaining fish make a full recovery.  They really do have such a beautiful red color!

[Fish Of Gold]

Wishing you good luck with your goldfish. I'm sorry for your loss of goldfish already

[bagh]

I'm so sorry to hear you lost some of them  Hopefully everything is on the upswing and the remaining fish make a full recovery.  They really do have such a beautiful red color!

 

 

Wishing you good luck with your goldfish. I'm sorry for your loss of goldfish already

Thank you for your concern, wonderful ladies. Unfortunately enough, another fish passed today. It's kinda creepy. Exactly same modus operandi. Jumping around five minutes ago, dead the next! Posting a video of them soon.

[bagh]

This is called itchy ich.

 

[fantailfan1]

Sorry for your losses. 

 

Didn't you recently have an ich outbreak?  Was that another tank? 

[bagh]

Sorry for your losses. 

 

Didn't you recently have an ich outbreak?  Was that another tank? 

Yes! The whole petstore is infected I'm beginning to think!