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How do you know when it's time to let go?


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There might be internal irritation that is making it hard for him to eat. I'm worried that he is not getting enough nutrients to keep up his energy. Do you see any poop? If so, what does the poop look like?

 

Have the antibiotics come yet? Are you still wanting to try the antibiotics?

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There might be internal irritation that is making it hard for him to eat. I'm worried that he is not getting enough nutrients to keep up his energy. Do you see any poop? If so, what does the poop look like?

 

Have the antibiotics come yet? Are you still wanting to try the antibiotics?

Ups says either tomorrow or Friday for the antibiotics. I will start them the moment they come in

His poop as I've seen it coming out looks like a solid green, likely from the peas.

I haven't seen the solid poop at the bottom of the tank however. I think his is breaking up easier than normal, because usually I can see more. OR it could be what I think is extra pea debris, which means it's definitely not as solid as it used to be.

Should I push harder for him to eat the blood worms? Should I look into making a gel food for him to try for the time being, since it will likely stick together easier? I'm willing to try whatever you think will work.

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I'll ask a moderator to post a schedule and guide you through the antibiotic treatment.

 

Good to hear that green poop is coming out. Gel food would be good to try.

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:hi  Per Lisa's request I'm going to try to help you now.  First, I would like you to move him back to the 20 gallon QT with just an airstone, but only fill it to 10 gallons.  Add 1/2 Teaspoon of Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate - predissolved in water) and stop feeding him for two days.  Fasting is one of the most effective ways to alleviate swim bladder problems if they are food related.  No more peas, please.  As soon as the meds arrive, do a 100% water change, then replace the Epsom Salt and add the Kanaplex and the Metroplex.  Dose two level measures of the Kanaplex and two level measures of the Metroplex.  Here's the schedule:

 

Day 1 - 100% water change, add 1/2 Teaspoon of Epsom Salt, add Kanaplex and Metroplex.

Day 2 - Add a double dose of Prime

Day 3 - 100% water change, add 1/2 Teaspoon of Epsom Salt, add Kanaplex and Metroplex.

Day 4 - Add a double dose of Prime

Day 5 - 100% water change, add 1/2 Teaspoon of Epsom Salt, add Kanaplex and Metroplex.

Day 6 - Add a double dose of Prime and let's check in :)

 

I have to say that at this point, we may not be able to correct this, but these are the best meds to give him a fighting chance.

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You'll want to make sure you have enough of the meds to go at least the minimum days given the dosage that Jared recommends. See post #23 for the minimum days. If you don't think you have enough of the meds, then order more online and they should get there before you run out. You can always save the meds for the future if you get too much.

 

Healing energy to your fish!

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You'll want to make sure you have enough of the meds to go at least the minimum days given the dosage that Jared recommends. See post #23 for the minimum days. If you don't think you have enough of the meds, then order more online and they should get there before you run out. You can always save the meds for the future if you get too much.

 

Healing energy to your fish!

I think she'll have enough if she only fills the tank to 10 gallons and doses every other day per the schedule :)

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That all sounds good! I actually had to leave the house tonight but I will be back tomorrow to transport him to the qt again and set it up with the air stone and salt.

When you say two measures, do you mean double dose or what? (I'm sorry, I've been up a while so my comprehension isn't the best lol)

Am I continuing to fast him throughout the treatment? Also, should I heat the water at all?

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That all sounds good! I actually had to leave the house tonight but I will be back tomorrow to transport him to the qt again and set it up with the air stone and salt.

When you say two measures, do you mean double dose or what? (I'm sorry, I've been up a while so my comprehension isn't the best lol)

Am I continuing to fast him throughout the treatment? Also, should I heat the water at all?

Make sure to use Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate) and not salt (sodium chloride).

 

The Seachem bottles come with a measure that is attached to the lid.  2 measures is the recommended dosage (for 10 gallons) on the bottle of Kanaplex and the upper recommended dosage (for 10 gallons) on the bottle of Metroplex.  So, it's 2 measures of each medicine after each water change.

 

Fast him for 2 days, then if he is less floaty, offer him some frozen bloodworms.

 

If you can safely mount the heater in the tub, gradually raise the heat to around 76 F to get his metabolism moving.  If not, the heat isn't mandatory for the treatment.

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That all sounds good! I actually had to leave the house tonight but I will be back tomorrow to transport him to the qt again and set it up with the air stone and salt.When you say two measures, do you mean double dose or what? (I'm sorry, I've been up a while so my comprehension isn't the best lol)Am I continuing to fast him throughout the treatment? Also, should I heat the water at all?

Make sure to use Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate) and not salt (sodium chloride). The Seachem bottles come with a measure that is attached to the lid.  2 measures is the recommended dosage (for 10 gallons) on the bottle of Kanaplex and the upper recommended dosage (for 10 gallons) on the bottle of Metroplex.  So, it's 2 measures of each medicine after each water change. Fast him for 2 days, then if he is less floaty, offer him some frozen bloodworms. If you can safely mount the heater in the tub, gradually raise the heat to around 76 F to get his metabolism moving.  If not, the heat isn't mandatory for the treatment.

Understood.

As far as "floaty" goes though, he's never... Not floating at the top if that makes sense. Every once in a while he will swim down but he immediately goes back up. Should i just not feed him until I see improvement? He has been fasted when he was refusing to eat and I never noticed a difference in floating. (he was just more lethargic)

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I thought you said that he "floated up"  and had sores on his belly as a result of his belly being exposed to the air :idont

Sorry I wasn't clear, that is what I meant. He's always floating at the top (I said he's never not doing it, so, I see how the double negative was confusing lol)

Like, he's always floaty so I'm not thinking that the fasting will make him any less floaty since he was like the the whole time he wouldn't eat too.

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Gotcha!  I am throwing every trick I know at him to try to figure this out.  What I am hoping is that the Epsom Salt plus the fasting along with the correct antibiotics may yield a new result.  The fasting will also help keep the ammonia and nitrite under control in the uncycled tub :)

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Gotcha!  I am throwing every trick I know at him to try to figure this out.  What I am hoping is that the Epsom Salt plus the fasting along with the correct antibiotics may yield a new result.  The fasting will also help keep the ammonia and nitrite under control in the uncycled tub :)

Sure :) I appreciate all of your help immensely, I pray that something will work. So today marks day 1 for his treatment and I will keep you posted on any changes

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So, update: he's still not any less floaty and he is getting annoyed with the lack of food (considering I have to keep trying to put vaseline on him every day and he thinks I'm trying to feed him)

Is it OK to feed him or should I still continue fasting? Also... Is there an alternative to vaseline that I can put on him? It's nearly impossible and i've only gotten it to really stick once

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So, update: he's still not any less floaty and he is getting annoyed with the lack of food (considering I have to keep trying to put vaseline on him every day and he thinks I'm trying to feed him)

Is it OK to feed him or should I still continue fasting? Also... Is there an alternative to vaseline that I can put on him? It's nearly impossible and i've only gotten it to really stick once

How many days have you fasted him?  I think you can stop with the Vaseline now that the antibiotics are in the water.  

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I started on Friday and did my 100% water change and medicine replacement yesterday, so I've done two doses and today marks day 4 of treatment.

 

I started on Friday and did my 100% water change and medicine replacement yesterday, so I've done two doses and today marks day 4 of treatment.

Okay, that's still early on in the treatment to see results.  Let's give the meds more time :)

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An update:

I will be changing the water 100% and adding the medication after I am off work tonight. So far there's no real improvement to speak of, but he is much happier being able to eat again lol.

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An update:

I will be changing the water 100% and adding the medication after I am off work tonight. So far there's no real improvement to speak of, but he is much happier being able to eat again lol.

Okay, all you can do is keep doing what you're doing and have hope.  I seen some stories recently where fish have turned around long after the keeper expected:

 

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120855-and-then-a-miracle-occurs/

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Here's a potentially surprising update: 

 

Yesterday, I decided to take Suna to LSU veterinary teaching hospital since i figured that would be his best bet for survival at this point, since nothing I have been doing was working. 

The Dr. decided a plethora of different treatment plans (all relying on x-rays and ultrasounds done) and was very concerned about how long it has been that he has been upside down

As a result, i have some VERY interesting x-rays to show you! 

tumblr_nlqwacNwjU1rho406o1_1280.pngtumblr_nlqwacNwjU1rho406o2_1280.jpg

 

WOWZA, right? 

 

As you can see, he had an ENORMOUS amount of gas trapped in his swim bladder. his swim bladder has also seemed to shift to the side ever-so-slightly. As for the dark mass behind the lower swim bladder, she wasn't too sure of what to think of it. The best guess is that his swim bladder got very inflated and twisted some way around or over his intestines, and that is why they are bunched at the side over there. 

 

She decided to take the air out of it with a carefully placed needle, and voila! no more floating! 

 

 

Now, he is mainly swimming on his side and seems a bit confused about which way is up/down and left/right, likely because of being upside down for so long. He doesn't seem INCAPABLE of sinking or floating, but he doesn't seem to really remember how at this point. 

 

He is so much more alert and active since the visit, and definitely a lot happier!  The dr. has him on baytril injections every 4 days now, and hopefully we will see improvement soon.

 

If he continues to side sit through tonight I may add more water to the quarantine tank to see if it entices him to swim up. 

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Wow! Thank you for sharing the xrays! Did the vet say what could have caused that amount of air to be in the swim bladder? Also, since the vet took some of the air out with a needle doesn't that leave a hole in the swim bladder?

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I've heard of the air being removed from swim bladders to alleviate floating in medical texts and also goldfish reference books, but I've never seen the excess gas in an X-ray before! Super neat, thank you for sharing with us and I'm very glad your fish is no longer floating.

You are beyond dedicated to your fish and they are soooo lucky to have you!!

Perhaps another exotics vet or an ichthyologist can give you some insight on the other masses.. :hmm

Ooooo found an old 1928 reference that showed how long it can take for fish to recover from that process...sort of. Very nerdy, but very interesting to read. I'm sure there are plenty of newer studies to compare these theories and results to that may confirm and dispute some.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/6/1/42.full.pdf

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I can help shed a bit of light on the xrays, as I have cut open many a fish in my day :rofl so I have a general feel of how things should look on an xray. 

tumblr_nlswu7U0j91rvj6gdo1_540.png

 

The swim bladder is divided into two lobes, the cranial and the caudal, in fancy goldfish the caudal can be misshapen, tiny, or completely absent. In this case the caudal has seemingly migrated downward and sits below the cranial, which would explain the floating. The liver in goldfish is odd and is kind of a space filler, it just seems to fill in extra area not being utilized by the other organs. it and the GI tract are in the dark area circled, which looks normal. The other object should be the kidney but when things get so shifted around organ wise I could be incorrect. So it appears the only real issue is the location of the caudal lobe which is likely making it tough for the fish to keep balanced. The swim bladder will likely refill and need to be drained again, but it varies upon the individual on how long it will take. Hope this helps a bit! 

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