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troy.telford

Red Blood Vessels, Ragged fins

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Symptoms

  • Red veins in tail fins
  • A few 'spots' where red veins are more dense.
  • Frayed fins.

The symptoms are very long lived:

  • The patient had this to some extent for a couple of years, at the very least.
  • Sometimes it gets worse, sometimes it gets better.
  • I have found no real pattern in when it improves or worsens.

Unusual behavior

  • Patient is slightly less active than usual, and has been 'relaxing' in a spot where there is a fair amount circulation (near the front of the tank, in front of the filter)
  • Patient does leave that spot, swims around the tank for 4-5 min, and then goes back to 'chill' for another 15-20.
  • He's never hung out there before; he's almost always stayed on the other end of the tank (where there isn't a filter), and swam around there.

Tank Information 
Tank Size:        55 Gallon; 12"x48" (top)
Tank Age:        Established November 2011
Filter:                Currently 1x Aqueon 55/75 HOB (An Eheim 2075 should arrive in a few days)

Note:  I've always had an issue with diatoms, in every tank I've had. I finally decided to read more about them, and am waiting for a silicate testing kit to arrive. I'm thinking the silicate level in my water may be fairly high.

Population:

Red Cap Oranda

  • 8 inches long
  • Predates tank

Red Ryuken

  • 4.5 inches
  • Added Jan 2014

Black Moor

  • 5.5 inches
  • Added Jan 2014

Water Changes

Amount:                   80%
Frequency:               Weekly
Last Water Change: Tuesday, Jan 27, 2015
Amount:                   80%

Water Additives
Conditioner:             SeaChem Prime
Fertilizer:                  SeaChem Flourish Tabs (in gravel)

Tank Medications

  • Metro-Meds, one fish scraped off a few scales when he swam up gravel vac, had minor infection, ~3 weeks, in July 2014
  • Metro-Meds, when the last fish was added ≥ 1 year ago. ~ 3 weeks.

Otherwise, I only medicate in a hospital tank.

Diet
Food: Goldfish Connection Pro Gold
Amount: 1/4 tsp 2x daily (I'm thinking of halving it)

Water Parameters

API Freshwater Master Test Kit (Liquid)
 

Item              | Tap           | Tank
----------------- | ------------- | -------
Ammonia           | 0 ppm         | 0 ppm
Nitrite           | 0 ppm         | 0 ppm
Nitrate           | Trace         | 10 ppm
High Range pH     | ~7.9          | 8.0

Tetra EasyStrips

Item              | Tap                     | Tank
----------------- | ----------------------- | -------
Nitrate           | < .5 ppm                | <20 ppm
Nitrite           | 0 ppm                   | 0 ppm
GH                | Between 150 and 300 ppm | Between 150 and 300 ppm
Chlorine          | 0.5 ppm                 | 0 ppm
KH                | Between 180 and 300 ppm | Between 180 and 300 ppm
pH                | 7.8                     | 7.8

Yearly City Water Quality Report (Reference)

Category             | Value
-------------------- | --------
Hardness as CaCO3    | 170 ppm
Alkalinity as CaCO3  | 206 ppm
Nitrate              | 3.7 ppm
Calcium              | 83.5 ppm
Iron                 | 200 ppb
Manganese            | 5 ppb
Magnesium            | 47 ppm
Chloride             | 170 ppm
Phosphate            | 20 ppm
Sodium               | 79.9 ppm
Specific Conductance | 917 μmhos/cm^3
pH                   | 8.5

Images

(Right click on image and choose "open in new tab" or "open in new window" to view full size.

 

IMG_1663.jpg

Yup. It's an aquarium.  The gravel is 2.5-3 inches deep.  I am planning on removing all but 1" deep, but will do so slowly.

 

DSC_0418.jpg
This image shows the frayed dorsal fin, as well as some of the tail fins.

 

DSC_0420.jpg
This is a show of just the tail fins, showing some of the red blood vessels and frayed fins.


DSC_0425.jpg
This is more of the same, but you can see a red "spot" where a clump of blood vessels are.


DSC_0425.jpg
A shot of the fins from the other side

Edited by troy.telford

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Can I just say I'm impressed with how thorough your info is?  I was totally like "hey, I think my fish is sick" when I posted my first illness post *facepalm*

 

I have been with this exact situation many, many, MANY times before with some chronically sick goldies and found that as time went on the fish got less and less tolerant of water quality issues, so normally being a little off wouldn't be a big issue, but eventually they pretty much didn't tolerate any level of nitrates/nitrites/ammonia etc  I ended up with two penguin 350's on my 55 gal to keep them happy in conjunction with water changes every 5 or so days and two bubblers of extra O2.  Are you adding the canister filter to the aqueon, or instead of?   The mods will definitely know how to address whats going on, I only mention this since you brought up that this has been on and off for a while.   

 

I do think hanging around the filter and strong circulation he/she is probably enjoying the extra oxygen flow...its was a trend over here whenever my sickies got sick.

 

Basically my comment was completely pointless - so I'll finish it up with mentioning how cute the stars hanging in the background are.  I'm kind of loving them.   :)

 

 

Hope she feels better soon! 

Edited by Reds12

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Can I just say I'm impressed with how thorough your info is?  I was totally like "hey, I think my fish is sick" when I posted my first illness post *facepalm*

 

Not my first post.  After my first post, it clicked that it's like one of the problem reports I deal with daily at work (I'm an engineer).

So, my thinking is:  If collecting the information is worth doing, it's worth over doing.

 

I did forget one thing:  Temperature:  70F

 

Are you adding the canister filter to the aqueon, or instead of? 

 

I haven't fully decided.  I am definitely going to have both for a couple months minimum. Part of me wants to remove the HOB for silence, but part thinks the extra surface disturbance will be beneficial for aeration purposes, especially in the summer.

 

 

The mods will definitely know how to address whats going on, I only mention this since you brought up that this has been on and off for a while.   

 

One clarification:  It's only been "bad" (like now) and "not so bad" (with less redness & shredding).

 

The symptoms have been persistent for at least two years, with an ebb and flow that doesn't seem to follow water changes.

It's been with him so long I'm not that worried, but I do want to find out what it is & see if I can resolve what is causing it (because it's probably just me sucking in my fish keeping in some way or another).

Edited by troy.telford

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I can't be of any help here...but your fish are gorgeous. :P Really hope your red-cap feels better soon. If anyone can help it's the team on this forum. They are super-heroes. :rolleyes:

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It's getting worse, fast. Now I'm getting worried.

10e972bc4c06335f6e9f8dddbe0c7fd3.jpg

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Have you ever treated for flukes with Prazi?

 

Let's start by getting the patient into a hospital tank with  fresh water containing 0.1% salt (one teaspoon per gallon).

Edited by shakaho

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One hospital tank coming up.

I've never treated any of my fish with Prazi.  In fact, my 'local' pet shops are PetCo & PetSmart.

The local pet shops only have very large quantities of Prazi for sale (enough to treat 2500 Gallons is the minimum), and is $95.  For that price, I can next-day from Amazon.

Edited by troy.telford

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Man the above is disjointed...
 

  • Hospital Tank is being assembled; sadly I don't have one cycled.
    • I'll have to pick up a filter that takes the same cartridge as my current HOB; then I can at least transfer over one of the filter cartridges, and then watch both tanks...
    • It'll be 20 gallons per fish, so it shouldn't be too bad...
  • I've never treated any of my fish with Prazi.
  • There are, like many places, two kinds of place to get stuff:
    • PetSmart or PetCo, which are much closer, but neither carry Prazi
    • The local marine & reef aquarium shops (2) which are about an hour's drive away, which only have very large quantities of Prazi for sale.
Edited by troy.telford

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Nobody carries PraziPro?  If not,  I'd order it online.  With that much redness in the tail, I'd also treat with antibiotics.  I would get powdered metronidazole and kanamycin.

 

You can get all three here:

 

http://www.petmountain.com/product/internal-parasite-aquarium-medications/11442-504920/hikari-hikari-prazipro-for-freshwater-and-marine-aquariums.html

 

http://www.petmountain.com/product/multi-purpose-aquarium-medications/11442-503346/seachem-seachem-metronidazole-marine-freshwater-medication.html

 

http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-bacterial-medications/11442-512376/seachem-seachem-kanaplex-marine-freshwater-medication.html

 

 

I usually don't use a filter on my QT tank.  If I do, I run it with mechanical filtration only to keep the water looking clean and then do large WCs every day to every other day depending on water parameters . . .

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I usually have a small filter on a hospital tank for water circulation, but I also don't have it cycled.  When I am treating a sick fish I want to get rid of all of that yucky water every day.  I use two 10 gallon tanks and just move the fish into a tank of clean medicated water every day.

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Nobody carries PraziPro?

 

The local fish stores are almost exclusive to marine & reef. There's a bit of token stuff for freshwater, but that's it.

 

The only store with Prazi of any kind had a powder -- which they then tell you to dissolve in Vodka before putting it in the tank. So that plus a bottle of vodka would be over $130 or so...  I ordered PraziPro with next-day shipping; it'll show up tomorrow.

As for the antibiotics:  I have Tetracycline (which I'd have to cover the tank & keep it dark to use), and I believe I have metronidazole and kanamycin... will check...

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Don't use the tetracycline . . . .

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I wasn't thinking tetracycline would be appropriate. Just mentioning I have it.

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I hope you do have the Metro and Kana, please let us know if you find them even if there isn't enough for more than one dose at the time (you can always order more!). I have seen this many time with the larger blood spots towards the end of the fins..the faster the antibiotics are in the water with the fish, the better the chances are for survival. Hang in there! :bighug

Edited by Chai

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I have both: beaches Metroplex & Seachem Kanaplex. Just arrived today.

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I'll assume beaches Metroplex was an autocorrect and it's Seachem.  :teehee

 

Do you have the QT set up?  You do not need salt in the QT. 

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I just treated my Oranda who looked like yours (although not quite as severe) with two antibiotics. My fish had all the symptoms of bacterial septicemia. There is also a viral septicemia which is deadly and highly contagious. I put my fish in a 10 gallon hospital tank that was pre-cycled, salted, extra aeration and ready to go. I treated with E-mycin and Kanaplex as directed.

I'm not a Vet. Hopefully someone with more authority than I can better help you.

My opinion though is you're dealing with the same illness. Best of luck to you!

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Yes, autocorrect for Seachem.

QT is setup, dosed, and patient is in the hospital.

The other fish are like "Old man Helmut is gone. We can do whatever we want now!"

Heres hoping ok man Helmut returns to put those kids in their place!

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Oh one tip that worked great was putting the dosage of Kanaplex inside a gel cube. Getting your fish to eat it is optimal.

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Sounds good. Keep us posted.  Don't be surprised if he mopes in QT.  I have a couple of fish that always mope in QT.  :teehee 

 

Since the QT isn't cycled, you'll probably want to do 100% WCs every other day (or 2 large back to back WCs if you prefer not to move him).  We will want to go 14 days with the metro and probably 12 days with the kana .  . .

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Since I don't have gel food, to put the antibiotics in, and the LFS is closed for the day... How would I make some? Gelatin mixed with his current food and maybe some garlic for flavor? I doubt it's a good idea to blend in the antibiotics whilst the gelatin is hot; they probably break down from the heat.

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Water born for both the kana and metro is fine.  They both are well absorbed.  :D

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Good. Now I just have to rush to the Home Depot to get something to cover the tank. Helmut already breached the water a bit -- and I have two cats, one of whom is not trustworthy.

Your guess is as good as mine for which cat to trust.

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Well, I'm a dog person so I don't trust any cats.  :donthit:

 

:tomuch: 

 

Good luck finding a cover.  :teehee

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