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Large white bump. Kinda like a whitehead.


troy.telford

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It's a petsmart fish, so no real idea about its lineage. It started growing a white bump about two weeks ago. It's not getting any better or worse at this point. 55 gal tank, 2 goldfish tank buddies. Water changed ~25% -40% weekly. Test supplies ran out; I'll have to get a new liquid test kit.

Any ideas?

108ad99df597215e1a8f6c22cb25775a.jpg

498499ca64d846e3e7d12a078a95d498.jpg

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  • Regular Member

Troy, Hello! Your fish are beautiful.

In order to best help you, please fill out the form below.

Please also include a full picture of your tank.

As for your pictures, can you get a closer picture of the white bumps? It is hard to see them in the current pictures.

Thanks!

Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank)

* Nitrite Level(Tank)

* Nitrate level(Tank)

* Ammonia Level(Tap)

* Nitrite Level(Tap)

* Nitrate level(Tap)

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

* Water temperature?

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

* How often do you change the water and how much?

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

* What do you feed your fish and how often?

* Any new fish added to the tank?

* Any medications added to the tank?

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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Tank size: 55 Gallon (208L for those who only learned to move a decimal point)

Tank established: Nov 2010

Filter: Aqueon 55/75

Water change frequency: Weekly (Sunday afternoons)

Water change amount: ~50%

Last water change: 6 days, ~50%

Next water change: a few hours from now

Temperature: 71F or 21.666C

Water Additives:

API Stress Coat or API Tap water conditioner (I tend to alternate between weeks)

API Stress Zyme

Test kit: API Liquid

I'm away from the tank at the moment, so I'll report my typical test values:

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: high, around 40-80 ppm (just before water change). The shade in the test kit isn't easy to gauge between 40 & 80. After a 50% water change, it's close to 20, maybe 30.

PH: neutralish; around 7.3

KH: hard water, I don't recall the typical values.

I'll report full/current water stats (and try to get better pictures) after I get back later today and have done my normal water change, though I really doubt it'll be different.

Notes: I've tried doing daily water changes to bring the nitrate levels down to near zero a couple of times; the Nitrate level rises back to its current range within a month (still doing weekly changes), and stays steady in the 20-40 range (depending on the time of week).

I've also tried API Nitra Zorb (an ion exchange filter media that's supposed to absorb nitrates), but found it wasn't effective, so I stopped using it. I tried that 6+ months ago.

Food: Goldfish Connection Pro Gold

Food quantity: 1/4 tsp (1.25 mL)

Feeding Schedule: 8:00 AM and 6:00 PM

Tank population: 3 adult goldfish

Red Cap Oranda 4.5" if I don't count its long, gossamer, flowing tail fins. 8+" if I do.

Black Moor: 3" sans tail fins; 4.5" including fins

Red Ryuken; 3" sans tail fins; 4.5" including fins

New additions: None. The Ryuken and Black Moor have been in the tank over a year. Oranda predates the current tank.

Medications:

Tank:

Current: none

I've used some aquarium salt when introducing new fish. At least a year. I also have used metro meds followed by jump start (reccomended after metro meds) for new additions. For anything else, I use a sick tank.

I've also tried API Nitra Zorb (an ion exchange filter media that's supposed to absorb nitrates), but found it wasn't effective, so I stopped using it. I tried that 6+ months ago.

Sick Ryuken : only metro meds, 2 weeks, most recently after an accident where the Oranda lost a couple scales and grew a blister from an infection. (6 months ago)

Injured Oranda (better now): after I noticed the blister, he was put in our sick tank for a week and treated with tetracycline & metro meds. The blister and sore went away, and he was returned to the home tank. Again, this was six months ago.

Unusual findings: only the white bump in the center of the ryuken's head, and now a bump on the side. There's some redness on the side bump, but the one on the head has nothing else to show.

Behavior is normal for all fish.

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Changed water 50%; nitrates are now around 20 ppm.

PH before and after measures about 7.6

Ammonia is zero

Nitrites are zero.

Tap water:

Ph 7.6

Ammonia: 0

Nitrites: 0

Nitrates: 0

I'll see if I can get better pictures.

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  • Regular Member

Thank you for filling out the form so clearly!

 

Since your tap nitrates are zero, the best way to keep the nitrates to less than 20 ppm is to do large water changes (I do 80% a week). Your tank and tap ph are close enough so that large water changes are not harmful to your fish. Just make sure the water temps are closely matching. Ideally keep the nitrates to less than 20 ppm at all times. That way the nitrates are not as much a negative impact on your goldfish's immune system. Not sure if high nitrates are the reasons for the bumps.

 

Make sure to include a picture of the entire tank. Thanks!

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OK, images. They're high-res, but the lighting wasn't as nice as I'd like.

I'll take a picture of the whole tank next... but for the moment...

 

Full-resolution images can be obtained from:

http://www.pariahzero.net/Fish/DSC_0409.jpg

http://www.pariahzero.net/Fish/DSC_0411.jpg

http://www.pariahzero.net/Fish/DSC_0413.jpg

http://www.pariahzero.net/Fish/DSC_0414.jpg

http://www.pariahzero.net/Fish/DSC_0415.jpg

 

 

 

This first image is from the rear right. You can see a bubble about 3/4 of the way to the right.

DSC_0409.jpg

 

Next: A shot of his right side; you can see both the swelling on his right side, and his head easily in it. You should be able to clearly see that there are blood vessels inside the bump on his side.

 

DSC_0411.jpg

 

The next shot is more of the same, different angle. There appears to be a 'black speck' on his head bump in this one. it's something on the glass or the camera lens. It's not on the fish.

 

DSC_0413.jpg

The next is a bit grainy (not enough light), but you can see the bump on his head much more clearly:
DSC_0414.jpg

 

Finally, a somewhat blurry shot, but you can easily see the two bumps:

DSC_0415.jpg

Edited by troy.telford
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The pictures are great! Thank you! I'll ask the moderators to check out your information now.

 

You have a beautiful tank! One thing though - the gravel is thicker than we would recommend. Usually we recommend 1/4-1/2 inch so that bad bacteria and pathogens in the gravel is minimized. You can bring the gravel thickness down and maybe pile a bit more near the wisteria to keep it rooted down. If you reduce the gravel thickness down all at once, you'll need to watch your water parameters because some of the beneficial bacteria is in your gravel (but not much).

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  • Regular Member

Troy,

 

I've consulted with the moderators. The growth with the veins running through it is most likely the beginning of a tumor. If so, what will happen is as the tumor ages, it will turn more opaque to a solid white form with the veins running through it. Instead of white, it may become light grey. Once matured it will have the feel of a solid jelly - slightly firm but wobbly.

 

Can you feel both of the bumps and see how they feel in comparison?

 

Can you also closely examine the fish for any similar bumps? Once a fish presents with tumors, it is common to have multiple tumors.

 

Would you be willing to try to scrape the growth that is not white off (the one her or his side) with a butter knife or something similar? If so, Helen, one of our moderators who is experienced with these types of growths, would be able to provide directions on how to do this.

 

While unsightly, it has been our experience that goldfish with tumors continue to live relatively healthy lives. The tumors can be cut off (Helen has walked people through this process), but we have found they usually regrow after some time.

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I anesthetized the fish using clove oil, and proceeded as suggested. It's groggy, but slowly coming back from dreamland.

 

Describing the firmness is tricky... I've settled on cheese, since an individual variety tends to be fairly consistent in texture.

 

The one one the side was relatively hard (something like feta), and fluid-filled. After a gentle scrape with the butter knife, it vented and softened up, much like a blister.  I carefully scraped off the clear 'sack' of the blister, making sure to not injure the scale underneath.

 

The bubble one on the top of his head is was softer than the one on his side, but it's still fairly firm... definitely firmer than a curd of cottage cheese, but probably more like a Kraft Single american cheese slice.

 

Unlike the one on his side, I didn't get a clear impression whether it was simply fluid-filled (like a blister, or boil), or if it is swollen tissue.

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I anesthetized the fish using clove oil, and proceeded as suggested. (I'm glad I have it! made it a lot less stressful for both of us, I'm sure)

 

Describing the firmness is tricky... I've settled on cheese, since an individual variety tends to be fairly consistent in texture.

 

The one one the side was relatively hard (something like feta), and fluid-filled. After a very gentle scrape with the butter knife, it vented and softened up, much like a blister.  I carefully scraped off the clear 'sack' of the blister, making sure to not injure the scale underneath.  (I'm actually really good with a scalpel, and not at all queasy about such things... I didn't use a scalpel, figuring if a butter knife was suggested, a scalpel would be overkill and possibly more dangerous than beneficial.)

 

The white one on the top of his head is was softer than the one on his side, but it's still fairly firm... definitely firmer than a curd of cottage cheese, but probably more like a Kraft Single american cheese slice.

 

Unlike the one on his side, I didn't get a clear impression whether it was simply fluid-filled (like a blister, or boil), or if it is swollen tissue.

 

I did take care to not apply much pressure, as I really don't want to injure it.

 

I'm primarily concerned for the fish's health, and that of its tank mates.

 

I've had a goldfish (different tank, 2-3 years back) that died after having 3-4 white cottony "bursts" the size of a pencil eraser erupt from its body over the period of a week (like something out of a sci-fi flick).  It dropsy'd a few days later and never recovered. I still have no idea what it was, but after the first eruption, I asked the guy at the pet store, who was positive it was a fungal disease, and suggested a fungal cure, which was obviously ineffective.

 

That memory still haunts me, and I'd rather not repeat it.

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I'm impressed with your bravery and skill to do the scraping!

I've asked a moderator to directly respond to you.

Healing vibes to your beautiful fish!

Oh yeah, did you find any other growths on the fish?

Edited by LisaCGold
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Hi Troy.  I don't think thiis is a Nitrate issue, but it might be better to replace the API Water Conditioner, Stress Coat and Stress Zyme with Seachem Prime.  I also agree with Lisa about reducing or removing the gravel.  I also have some ideas about treating those lesions, but I want to wait until I hear back from another one of our moderators before giving you my opinion :)

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troy, welcome to kokos :) congratulations on the successful sedation and removal of the tumor from your fish. since you do not currently have access to the subscriber's chat or the koko's PM system, do you have skype? if so, please click my profile picture, that will lead you to my profile contact information. there you will see my skype address. i would like to share an autopsy video with you (that is not set to public) which helped me to better understand exactly what is what where it concerns external tumors.

 

this will all be via IM.

 

from there, should you wish to proceed with a procedure, and would like some guidance/company during it, i am happy to lock in a time either via skype IM or skype vid..

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Regular Member

The white spot is growing, and I see a darker spot inside that I suspect is a blood vessel. I think I'll remove it, but as this is a more serious thing than the one I removed before, I want to be well prepared.

One question, Helen: aside from Betadine antiseptic, do you use any antibiotics or other medications in the recovery tank?

I'm thinking of the times I've needed stitches, usually to prevent/fight infection. I find it hard to believe fish are somehow immune.

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i would recommend it's removal, as much as possible, even the tissue around it.. and so what if it looks like a freak fish for a while? as long as it's a healthy freak fish ;)

 

no.. just salt and as an immediate fix, super glue.

 

whenever there was a bleed out, no other method worked fast enough. superglue will fall off after the first 12-24 hours. sometimes sooner. but that's ok, since fish wounds clot really fast, just sometimes they need a helping hand to start.

 

your fish is not sick from infection. antibiotics is not required. if there is minimal bleeding, it should clot on it's own. if there is a constant ooze of blood, it will require superglue. i would seriously love to share the post-mortem video with you. it will give you a good indication of what to expect whilst attempting removal of the tumor. i just will not share it in public as it is quite gruesome for most.

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I have several kinds of high quality cyanoacrylate. I even keep it in my fridge to preserve it.

I saw the surgery video you posted earlier, Helen. Great stuff. (No, I'm not squeamish. I roomed in college with my brothers, whom are biologists, and one doctor, who did human dissections. Dinner conversations were... graphic, and didn't effect me.)

One complaint: I shuddered when I saw you touch a cotton swab to super glue. Don't do that. Cyanoacrylate glues have a highly exothermic reaction to cellulose, such as cotton and paper towels.

I haven't started a fire (yet...), but I have gotten smoke and been burned by very hot cotton swabs.

Not exactly the kind of thing you'd expect, I'm sure...

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oh, it isn't you that i am concerned about re seeing such graphic content... Troy. it's the rest of our hobbyists on kokos who don't need to see what becomes of their loving pet after death and during examination.

 

in any case, i have interesting findings whilst exploring the type of tumors that you are faced with removing. i have offered all that i can and wish you good luck :)

 

i may check back for your updates at a later date :)

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