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Help with fantail again please - a bit stumped


Bpanelli

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Hi all - My apologies that I am only here when I need the awesome, friendly help of the experienced people here.

 

I've been dealing with what had previously been diagnosed by a moderator here to be bacterial cysts on one of my fish.  I had her in QT tank and doing daily water changes and they cleared up after about a week or so.  She was put back in the main tank and a couple weeks later they started showing up again.

 

The cysts open up and a white fluff/material comes out and eventually falls away.  There is one spot that has remained since it opened about 10 days ago - they usually close up fairly well.

 

I just finished a full treatment of Furan-2 (recommended by the LFS) in the main tank trying to remedy this but the cysts are still persisting.  The linked pictures show the fish a few days ago.

 

I'm wondering if there might be something else going on here, like parasites keeping the fish vulnerable to the bacterial infection, or am I just not doing water changes frequently enough for the tank size and causing this myself?  

 

I don't have water specs for you at this time but here is a bit of info...

Last water change was last night - 80% change - planning another tonight.

Tank size is 17g

2 fish approximately 3.5 inches body length

50-75% water changes every 5-6 days and condition the water with Prime.

 

So -- starting to feel like I'm chasing this thing and not sure how to handle.

 

Any help would greatly appreciated as usual.

Thanks!

Brett

 

PIC Links

IMG_3975_zpsb3f4f2da.jpg

 

IMG_3974_zps33c36e98.jpg

 

IMG_3952_zpsd4537e63.jpg

 

 

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Please fill out the form.  I assume you did it on the earlier thread, but it helps to not have to search for the information about your set up and maintenance procedures.

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I wanted to add that when you have a problem with a fish, it is best to test the tank water parameters "before" you do a water change.  This gives us a better idea of what might be causing the problem.

 

When you fill out the form, be sure to mention whether you have treated for Flukes and how you did so.

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Thank you for your replies!

 

I understand about testing water before a change...makes perfect sense.  I was on the end of the Furan-2 treatment which called for 25% water changes every 3rd day and wanted to get a large change in for the fish at the end of 8 days of treatment.

 

I just noticed something near the gill that I have not seen before and not sure if it is of concern.  Please see pic attached.  The edge of the gill looks slightly light in color and there is this spot I believe to be new but not sure.  I suppose it could be a metallic scale I've never noticed.

 

Here are my current parameters coming off the large water change less than 24 hours ago.

Test Results for the Following:

 

  • * Ammonia Level(Tank) .25
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) 10ppm
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 1.0
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) ph 8.1
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) ph 8.1
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
    • * Water temperature? 69 degrees
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 17 gal - 1.5 years
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 70 hob pretty loaded with bio media.
    • * How often do you change the water and how much?  ​every 6 days - 65%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?  yesterday
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fish - 3.5 inches body length
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime for water changes
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?  Goldfish connection pellets - almost daily
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? no - just finished Furan 2 treatment
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • for above question : Main Tank: two or three .3% salt treatments for fin rot and the current cysts  /  Furan-2 treatment for 8 days - just ended / Never have treated for Flukes
  • Fish:  These cysts are the first problem I've had with this fantail.  Ranchu has had dropsy but survived in QT with salt, MetroMeds, and constant 74 degree temp after about 2 weeks or more.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?  cysts that open and fluff off - see pictures above
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?  Possibly slightly more erratic swimming - hanging closer to top of tank sometimes - Fish is still eating well.

IMG_3962_zps43de7552.jpg

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Any thoughts on this problem?  No treatment is being administered at the moment and waiting to hear your recommendations. 

The cysts are persisting and I can see new "bumps" forming that will also open.

Just keeping the water good for now.  Will do another water test before a change today.

 

Thank you!

Brett

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We are discussing it. These are really odd.  Are the ragged-looking lesions a later stage of the one you pointed out as a new cyst?

 

I do have to point out some problems with your set up.  Your tank has twice as many fish as we recommend for that volume.  You can compensate for a small tank to some extent by increasing the size/frequency of water changes.  I'd recommend you do the same changes you are doing now every three days.   Water quality problems are the primary cause of bacterial cysts.  

 

How deep is the gravel in your tank?  It's just me, but when I see a fish with and infection or parasites  and gravel in the bottom of the tank, I don't see pretty little stones, I see a happy home for parasites and pathogens.  I'd recommend you remove the gravel until your fish are completely healthy.  

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Hi and thanks for your reply

 

Regarding the cysts - this is how they seem to progress...

- First a "bump" begins to show under the skin and sometimes is reddish in color but not always.

- Then they come to a head like a pimple and open up.  When they open, the white tufty material comes out and eventually fluffs/breaks off into the tank.  The cysts are varied in size and location - although they seem to be more pronounced on one side of her body.

- The "raggedness" you see I believe is the "fluffing" of the white material as it breaks apart and off of the fish.  The new cyst I pointed out had already opened in that picture, and what you see there is the white material coming out.  This has already broken off during the night.  Hope that helps a bit.

 

Regarding gravel - 

- The thickness is 3/8"-1" inch thick maximum - not very deep i think.

- I'm happy to remove until a later date if it is believed to be helpful.

 

Tank size -

I am aware I have been pushing it on the tank size:  I have a 88 gallon tank waiting in the wings and have been avoiding setting it up due to remodel plans for our house, which will include termite fumigation. So trying to avoid moving such a large tank once it is set up. - Looks like a temporary 40 gallon may be in order.

 

Thank you for your help!

Please advise further.

Edited by Bpanelli
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Petco is having their dollar per gallon sale until Jan 24th, if you'd like to save a bit on that 40!   ;)

 

Edited because my spacebar has a mind of its own.  Also, I removed my gravel recently while treating sick fish, and it made everything much easier.  :goodluck:

Edited by landmouse
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What I would like to recommend is to remove the fish, remove the gravel,  do a 100% water change, and add salt to 0.3%.  I'm a little worried about the 1.0 ppm ammonia in your tap water.  That should be inactivated with Prime at the normal dose, but I would double the dose.  

 

The other thing that might be helpful is a salt dip. I want to check with the mod team about that.  

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What sort of antibiotics have you tried? Is it only furan? While furan is a very good choice antibiotics in a number of cases, it's not particularly good for absorption into the tissues and are better for external things only.

 

My recommendation is to do metronidazole + oxolinic acid or metronidazole + kanaplex. Better yet, if you can do metronidazole in the water + Medi-Koi as feed, we will have all the bases covered.

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OK.  Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this.

 

First, I have 2 fish in the tank.  One Fantail and one Ranchu.

 

So let me confirm what you are requesting to be done.

 

shakaho

- Remove both fish from main tank.

- Remove Gravel

- Do a 100% water change

- Double Dose of Prime added to new water

- Add first dose of .1% salt solution to main tank. (2nd dose 12 hours later / 3rd dose 12 hours later)

- Waiting to hear on the salt dip for now

 

Note:  The ranchu has had dropsy in the past and has always been "floaty/tipsy" since then.  Just wondering if there is anything special to consider here regarding the treatment?  She is not showing cysts but has become more floaty than usual today. Ugh!

 

Then in response to dnalex...

- Yes, only the Furan was used for a total of one treatment lasting 8 days.

And you are saying to....

- Treat with Metronidazole and Kanaplex (LFS says they will have Kanaplex tomorrow) Treat both fish in main tank? And according to packaging directions on both correct?

 

Questions:

- Treat both fish in main tank? And according to packaging directions on both correct? I have a 10gal QT tank as well.

- I have metro meds from June 2013 when the ranchu had dropsy.  Will this be expired by now or can it be used in place of Kanaplex and or Medi-Koi?

- And if Medi-Koi is the preferred product over Kanaplex, I can order tonight and have in a couple days.

 

Whew!  Ok thanks so much!  Please confirm and I am onto emptying the tank.

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Actually, if you have Metro-Meds, let's try that for now. We want to feed 1% of the fish's bodyweight daily, but divide that amount to 3-5 times a day.

Treat only the sick fish.

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OK so Metronidazole and metro meds then.

 

Anything to do to with the main tank at all then?  The cysts have been erupting in there for a number of days now so wondering if we need to be concerned there in any way?

 

Once in the QT tank, how often will we change the water and what percentage?  And if daily, how do you suggest handling the .3% salt treatment suggested by Shakaho?  There will be no cycled filter in the QT tank...just constant water flow with un-cycled filter.

 

And what about temperature?  Should it be kept at a constant?  I don't typically use a heater in the main tank but have one for QT purposes.

 

Lastly, I'm going to get a good look at the ranch tonight as she has become noticeably more floaty today.  Will possibly post a pic of her for your review if that would be ok?

 

Thanks so much!

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As far as the main tank goes, I'd follow shakahos suggestion of removing the gravel, 100% WC and double dosing Prime. Personally I wouldn't treat the fish in the main tank if he's not showing any signs/symptoms. (The floatiness may or may not be related and you might want to start a separate thread for that . . . . )

The QT tank doesn't need a constant temp. What temp is the tank without a heater?

I would test for ammonia day 2 in QT. If it's less than 1.5 I would double dose Prime and then do a 100% WC the next day. If it's over 1.5, I think you should plan on 100% WCs daily along with double dosing Prime.

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Thanks to all of you!  Water temp is around 69 degrees this time of year without heater.

 

2 more questions--

- how many days treatment on the metro meds and metronidizole?

- How do I know how many pellets equals 1% of the fishes body weight? - I don't have a scale.  She is 3.5 inches or so long and 2.25 inches wide at her abdomen.

 

So to recap to be sure I am on it.

 

QT tank:

Metro Meds "and" Metronidizole together for treatment.

No salt in QT tank 

No heater needed. 

Daily WC's or every other day with double dose of prime on 2nd day - depending on ammonia.

 

Main tank:

Gravel removed

100% WC 

Double dose Prime for each WC and if ammonia creeps up

No salt at this point

Regular water changes to keep perfect water - Will test daily.

 

Thanks again!

B

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Thanks to all of you! Water temp is around 69 degrees this time of year without heater.

2 more questions--

- how many days treatment on the metro meds and metronidizole? no metronidazole just MM as Alex said in a previous post

- How do I know how many pellets equals 1% of the fishes body weight? - I don't have a scale. She is 3.5 inches or so long and 2.25 inches wide at her abdomen. a mod will be able to tell you how many she will need daily :)

So to recap to be sure I am on it.

QT tank:

Metro Meds "and" Metronidazole together for treatment. just the metro meds no metronidazole

No salt in QT tank

No heater needed.

Daily WC's or every other day with double dose of prime on 2nd day - depending on ammonia.

Main tank:

Gravel removed

100% WC

Double dose Prime for each WC and if ammonia creeps up

No salt at this point

Regular water changes to keep perfect water - Will test daily.

Thanks again!

B

Edited by Mikey
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So just wondering if it has been decided that the cause of the bacterial cysts are definitely not from any kind of parasite?  I understand water quality is always to be considered and my tank is smaller than advised, but realizing that the treatment advised here does not seem to include any external parasite treatment, only internal that the Metro-Meds will get to.

 

So should there not be a treatment to cover possible external parasites?  Even the .3% salt treatment which doesn't seem to be recommended any longer at this point?

 

Also, regarding Flukes.  Should all fish be treated for flukes at some point?  My goldies have never been treated for them so curious to know the norm here??

 

Thanks again for all the help!  You guys ROCK!!

B

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We have not actually ruled out anything. It may still be parasitic, but I prefer to approach this methodically instead of just trying everything at once.

We have enough at this low-caliber analysis to suspect that it might be bacterial, so let's deal with that first. We should have a good idea in the coming week, and will revise plans as needed.

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