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Pineconing? Oranda?


hperry36

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* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0.25
* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0.5-1.0
* Nitrate level(Tank)5-10
* Ammonia Level(Tap)0.25
* Nitrite Level(Tap)0.5
* Nitrate level(Tap)5-10
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)7.8
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
Other Required Info:7.8
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
* Water temperature? Not sure
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10 gal, a few weeks
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aqueon QuietFlow 10
* How often do you change the water and how much? Every other day 100% at the moment
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today, 12/31 late night before that
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 Oranda? 1.5 to 2 inches
* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Flakes, but just got some Omega One sinking pellets. Peas sometimes.
* Any new fish added to the tank? No
* Any medications added to the tank? Started 0.1% salt when I added fish to the tank December 27th (?). Started Prazi 12/31
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. So far the 0.1% salt and going on 4 days Prazi.
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Has had a couple of spots that look like missing scales. Figured they were ammonia burns or injury from the way to small tank I had her in. During the WC, I had her in a dish and noticed slight pineconing. Had a couple of white, stringy poops yesterday.
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? She was a little lethargic last night. Flashing some. She is gulping air at the surface a little now.

 

I knew nothing about goldfish when we first got her and had her in a 1.5 gal tank. I figured it would be best to move her to the 10 gal (even if uncycled). Started on Prazi treatment as soon as it came in. She was showing signs of flukes. She was handling it pretty well the first couple of days. I have been testing ammonia and nitrites every day and following the "ammonia + nitrite > or = 1" rule that I saw mentioned a couple of times. I did a 100% WC today when I got home from work (tested last night and a + n = 0.75 so I double Primed even though I probably should have gone ahead and done a WC). I added the Prime, salt and Prazi back in. When she was in the bowl I put her in for the WC, I noticed the pineconing. I put her back in the tank ( water temp matched by feel as none of the thermometers I have go that low- next on the shopping list). She was acting more like herself and hunting the bottom for food. I started looking up what pineconing could mean on here, and got very concerned as all of what I found sounded really bad. She had a couple of white stringy poops yesterday. Has had a couple of normal poops since I put her back in her tank. She has never stopped eating, but I did fast her one day 2 days ago since I noticed stringy poop then. Fed her a pea yesterday, and she had green poop (after the white poop). She has gulped at the surface a couple of times since putting her back in her tank after WC today. She is not clamping at all, no bottom sitting, Some flashing on side of tank over past few days. Is pineconing something they can do when stressed? (I ask because she really doesn't like being in the bowl.) Sorry, I am just really new to goldfish and am trying really hard not to kill my daughter's pet.

 

20150103_182137-1.jpg

 

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If the fish is pineconing it would be best to do a 100% water change to get rid of the salt :) I imagine there's a good chance a mod will ask you to get hold of some Epsom, hang in there :)

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I agree with the water change. If not a 100%, a back to back 90% would be good as well.

The reason we are suggesting you do this is because the salt retains the fluid that causes the pinecoing while the Epsom will expell it :)

Edited by Mikey
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I'm not sure that I see pineconing.  Can you get another picture from above with the rocks removed.  Try to get a close shot of the rear belly near the caudal peduncle.  We can see her outline better against the plain glass bottom of the tank.

 

BTW, it seems like you are doing a great job caring for your first Goldfish :)

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How long have you had her?  Did you get her locally or was she shipped?

 

Are you on Day 4 of round 1 of prazi?  :idont

 

Jared, I think I see some prickly scales on the right side right where you asked for a better pic.  I'd like a better pic too.  :D

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How long have you had her?  Did you get her locally or was she shipped?

 

Are you on Day 4 of round 1 of prazi?  :idont

 

Jared, I think I see some prickly scales on the right side right where you asked for a better pic.  I'd like a better pic too.  :D

Yes, that's where I want a better picture.  It could just be the lighter color of the scales on her underside.  But, the rocks make it hard to tell :idont

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How long have you had her?  Did you get her locally or was she shipped?

 

Are you on Day 4 of round 1 of prazi?  :idont

 

Jared, I think I see some prickly scales on the right side right where you asked for a better pic.  I'd like a better pic too.  :D

We have had her since the end of September. We got her at one of the big box pet stores. Yes, we are on day 4 of first round of Prazi. I started it late at night, so the "no Prazi day" should technically start tomorrow night.

 

 

I agree with the water change. If not a 100%, a back to back 90% would be good as well.

The reason we are suggesting you do this is because the salt retains the fluid that causes the pinecoing while the Epsom will expell it :)

Ok, the tank is draining now. When I fill back up, would I do normal dose of Prime, or double? What concentration of Epsom salt? Do I need to add back in the Prazi?

 

 

 

BTW, it seems like you are doing a great job caring for your first Goldfish :)

Thanks. I am trying, although I definitely started out rather poorly.

IMG_1509.jpg

 

IMG_1512.jpg

 

IMG_1515.jpg

 

Hopefully these can help with what you are looking for. She does already seem to be slightly better than before...or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

Edited by hperry36
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I don't think she is pineconing, so let's hold off on the Epsom Salt.  Let us know how she looks in the morning.  Just let her be in clean water tonight with a double dose of Prime, but no Prazi or salt.  

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Thank you. I'm glad it doesn't look like it to you. It didn't look so much to me, either, when I had her out this time. Maybe I am just not used to looking down on her from above and freaking out over nothing.

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I have a question about these parameters:

 

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0.25
* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0.5-1.0
* Nitrate level(Tank)5-10
* Ammonia Level(Tap)0.25
* Nitrite Level(Tap)0.5
* Nitrate level(Tap)5-10
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)7.8
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
Other Required Info:7.8

 

Did you test the tank water shortly after a water change?  I'm wondering why you have the same reading for the tap water and the tank water.

 

If your tank is cycled, you should have less ammonia and nitrite in than tank than in the tap. (Actually none in the tank)

 

If your tank is not cycled, you should have more ammonia/nitrite (one or both) in the tank than in the tap.

 

If you test right after a 100% water change, you are just testing the tap water twice.

 

Do you always have ammonia, and nitrite in your tap water?  If so, you should probably go to partial water changes more frequently rather than 100% changes.

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I have a question about these parameters:

 

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0.25

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0.5-1.0

* Nitrate level(Tank)5-10

* Ammonia Level(Tap)0.25

* Nitrite Level(Tap)0.5

* Nitrate level(Tap)5-10

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)7.8

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:7.8

 

Did you test the tank water shortly after a water change?  I'm wondering why you have the same reading for the tap water and the tank water.

 

If your tank is cycled, you should have less ammonia and nitrite in than tank than in the tap. (Actually none in the tank)

 

If your tank is not cycled, you should have more ammonia/nitrite (one or both) in the tank than in the tap.

 

If you test right after a 100% water change, you are just testing the tap water twice.

 

Do you always have ammonia, and nitrite in your tap water?  If so, you should probably go to partial water changes more frequently rather than 100% changes.

Those were a few hours after a WC. The ammonia has been 0.25 (just a hint of green tinge) every time recently. The nitrite does creep up. I didn't put the exact numbers, but the night before the nitrite had risen like mentioned. Yes, the few times I have tested the tap, there has been ammonia and nitrite in the tap water. Like I said, I was following someone else's Prazi schedule, so I didn't even really think about it since it was already there. Oops. I work 10-11 hours a day then come home to 3 small kids, so, my brain turns to mush by that point.

 

So, just so I don't screw it up again. Do I need to add the aquarium salt back in? Start the Prazi again? If I do a 50% water change (every day, every other day?) I would add back in 1.25mls Prazi? For the days off, would I do two 50% water changes, 100% water change? If two, how far apart? Sorry, I like to have things completely spelled out, because I am annoying like that.

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Okay, I notice you have an Aqueon Quiet Flow filter.  Are you using the cartridge that came with it?  If so, we need to get the carbon out of it or replace it with something else because the carbon will inhibit the Prazi.  If possible, it would be good if you could cut open the white floss and get all of the carbon out.  Do not wash the floss,cartridge or the blue parts of the filter with anything but Primed water or tank water (do not use plain tap water).  Tap water will kill the beneficial bacteria and stall your cycle.

 

Are you following the 5 or the 7-day schedule for Prazi rounds?  Please wait on salt and Prazi until we help you set up a schedule (as requested above).  I will look at this again later today  :)

 

Also, can you test the tank parameters as they are right now and post them?  You can do this at your leisure today as I think the fish is fine after the large water change and the double Prime.  We don't need any meds in the water today, anyway.  

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Okay, I notice you have an Aqueon Quiet Flow filter.  Are you using the cartridge that came with it?  If so, we need to get the carbon out of it or replace it with something else because the carbon will inhibit the Prazi.  If possible, it would be good if you could cut open the white floss and get all of the carbon out.  Do not wash it with anything but Primed water or tank water (do not use plain tap water). 

 

Are you following the 5 or the 7-day schedule for Prazi rounds?  Please wait on salt and Prazi until we help you set up a schedule (as requested above).  I will look at this again later today  :)

 

Also, can you test the tank parameters as they are right now and post them?  You can do this at your leisure today as I think the fish is fine after the large water change and the double Prime.  We don't need any meds in the water today, anyway.  

No, I did not put the cartridge in (but I did set it aside in case I needed the carbon to get meds out later on). There is the blue padding stuff made by Marineland cut down to size and a small bag of Fluval bio material (rings?) in there now.

 

I had started doing the 5 day schedule on Prazi. Noted, nothing added but Prime.

 

I will test the water again in just a bit.

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Gold Star for you!

 

Still no pineconing today, correct?

 

Let's switch to the 7-day rounds as I think they are easier to manage.  The schedule below is what I would suggest you do while we are still cycling and treating with Prazi.  The Prime will neutralize the ammonia and nitrite and the salt will also offset any negative effects from the nitrite.  

 

Mon 1/5 - 100% water change with Prime, add Prazi and salt (salt @1 Teaspoon per gallon).

Tue  1/6 - add double dose of Prime.

Wed 1/7 - 100% water change with Prime and replace Prazi and salt.

Thu  1/8 - add double dose of Prime.

Fri    1/9 - 100% water change with Prime, replace salt but not Prazi.

Sat   1/10 - add double dose of Prime.

Sun  1/11 - Let's talk.

 

Once the tank is cycled, we will want to change how you are doing water changes since you have ammonia and nitrite in your tap.  So. I suggest testing and recording your tank parameters daily :)

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Ammonia (Tank): 0.25

Nitrite (Tank): 0.5 to 1.0

Nitrate (Tank): 10 to 20

pH (Tank): 7.8 to 8.0

 

Sorry for the ranges, but the colors just didn't seem to match exactly to either number on those three.

 

Ok, will start this schedule tomorrow. Just to make sure salt=aquarium salt and at 0.001%?

 

And for the daily tank parameters, do I need to do all values, or mostly just ammonia and nitrite and maybe weekly on the others?

 

No, no pineconing or prickliness that I can see today.

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Ammonia (Tank): 0.25

Nitrite (Tank): 0.5 to 1.0

Nitrate (Tank): 10 to 20

pH (Tank): 7.8 to 8.0

 

Sorry for the ranges, but the colors just didn't seem to match exactly to either number on those three.Just ammonia and nitrite,

 

Ok, will start this schedule tomorrow. Just to make sure salt=aquarium salt and at 0.001%?

 

And for the daily tank parameters, do I need to do all values, or mostly just ammonia and nitrite and maybe weekly on the others?

 

No, no pineconing or prickliness that I can see today.

Aquarium salt should be 1 Teaspoon per gallon.  Sorry, that was a typo which I have edited.  Just test daily for ammonia and nitrite.  

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Before water change

Ammonia= 0.25

Nitrite= 0.5 to 1.0 (but closer to 1.0)

 

100% WC, 10 teaspoons aquarium salt added, Prazi added, Prime added

 

I did notice a small tear on the bottom, outside edge of one of her tail fins today. It is making the edge fold over, and tonight that edge is darkening up to black. Do I need to do anything else, or will the salt eventually help this?

 

Sorry to be such a pain.  :sorry::

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You're not a pain, and it's wonderful that you're doing all you can for your fish, especially with those work hours and 3 kiddos.   :thumbs: Clean water is the best thing for the tear, the salt in the water will help stave off a bacterial infection while it heals, and the darkening is usually a sign of healing.  You might want to see if you can get a picture for the moderators to see if they have any concerns or recommendations.

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I have a question about streaking in fins. I am used to working with dogs and cats, and when they have an ulcer in the eye, it is good to see the blood vessels creeping in from the outside of the iris to the edges of the ulcer. Usually when they reach the ulcer, some of the meds can be backed off slightly. It usually signifies healing. So, in fish, do the streaks signify the body trying to heal itself or something else? (Yes, I was that kid that constantly had to figure out how everything worked.)

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