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misssmountain

White markings on Oranda's tail have me stumped...

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I have 3 fish in a 25 gallon, and am waiting to move them over to a brand new 60 gallon, but was hoping to get this issue under control first. 

 

Basically, all 3 fish are acting completely normal -- eating, active, etc. One fish developed a few white marks on her tail about 6-7 weeks ago, as well as a little split on her dorsal fin which didn't heal up (usually these heal within a few days). I began treating with PraziPro and salt right before Thanksgiving, with no improvements. I did 4 of the 7 day rounds. 

 

It was recommended to me from a different source (someone who will be shipping me a new fish in a couple of weeks) to remove the Prazi, and do a 7 day treatment of Pimafix and Melafix (and salt), both of which I had on hand. He explained that Prazi is pretty effective, and if I hadn't seen any improvement after using it for 4 weeks, then maybe it was a different issue. The Pimafix/Melafix did nothing, and the fish still has the white marks.

 

I am stumped at this point. From the way she is behaving and her appetite, I would say I have nothing to worry about, but the marks do concern me. She did just go through a small growth spurt -- not sure if that has anything to do with it? Or if these are just injuries that for some reason aren't healing? Maybe I'm just overcrowded and the move to the 60 gallon will resolve this? Any ideas?

 

Pics coming later -- going to do a WC now and am going to try and pull her out of the tank for a pic...although I'm not sure the lighting will be good enough to see the spots. Either way, pics are coming :)

 

 

Ammonia Level(Tank) - 0

  • * Nitrite Level (Tank) - 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) - 10-20
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) - 0.25
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) - 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) - 5-10
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 7.8
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - 7.8
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? - API Master Kit, drops
      • * Water temperature? not sure
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? - 25g, since March 2014
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? - Penguin 200
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? - once a week, 25-50%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? - today, 25%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? - 3, 2 are about 2" and 1 is about 3"
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? - Prime, aquarium salt
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? - Hikari lionhead, twice a day
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? - one was added in late October
  • * Any medications added to the tank? - Prazipro, 4 "rounds", one week treatments of Melafix and Pimifix (after removing the Prazi(
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. - I have done 4 rounds of Prazi with aquarium salt, Melafix, Pimafix
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? - one fish has several white markings which have appeared on her tail, and also her dorsal fin tore in consistency with a white marking that showed up. Behavior and appetite completely normal. Other 2 fish are fine.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? - no

 

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Alright, here are some pics. First one shows the marks on the tail, and second one shows a whitish/swollen edge around the bottom of her left eye that I just noticed today. Sorry the water is a little cloudy, I took these during a water change. Someone help please, I have no idea what's going on anymore :(

 

IMG_20141226_160625474_zps8052a221.jpg

 

 

IMG_20141226_161543006_zps9ba3ecb3.jpg

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Hello! A moderator will be by soon. In the meantime, can you post a full tank picture? When you did the prazi treatment did you do a salt bath?

 

You will want to increase your water changes to at least 50% per week when in the 60 gallon. With three fish in 25 gallon, you'll want to do at least two water changes per week of at least 50%. Goldfish do best with large water changes. Even though your water parameters are good, there are other things in the water that are not tested.

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60 gallon is on the left, 25 gallon on the right. I do 50% water changes every now and again, but seemed to get ammonia spikes if I did them consistently. I can get back on that schedule with the 60g, though.

 

With the prazi, I first added salt -- 1 tbsp per 5 gallons, as per the aquarium salt packaging, but once I got on here, I increased it to 1 tsp salt per gallon.

 

Is a salt bath something different?

 

IMG_20141226_173221469_HDR2_zpsbe564f52.

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A bath is something different, but don't worry about that for now. I was just wondering if you did one during the time of the prazi treatment.

 

That is odd to get an ammonia spike if you do a 50% water change in your 25 gallon tank. I'm wondering if something is getting released from the gravel. :idont

 

The gravel in your 25 gallon tank is on the thick side. We recommend 0.25-0.5 inches so there is less chance of pockets of bad bacteria. Do you regularly vacuum your gravel at each water change?

 

Your filter does 200 gallons per hour. Ideally for a HOB filter you want 10X the tank size per hour for goldfish. For 25 gallons you want 250 ghp and for 60 you'll want 600gph. They are just so messy. :) If you get a canister filter you don't need to do 10x; 7x is usually sufficient.

 

How long has the dorsal fin been torn? Since Thanksgiving? Can you get a closer shot of the dorsal fin? Even if you have to have someone hold her gently in the tank.

Edited by LisaCGold

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I will get more photos later of the dorsal fin and the eye.

I will use a thinner layer of gravel going forward in the 60. I do vacuum it at every water change. Actually, it didn't end up being an ammonia spike, but occasionally my tap has ammonia in it, so at one point I was getting a reading. Thinking it was a spike, I did daily PWCs but continued getting a reading, as I was just continually putting water with ammonia back in the tank, and the bacteria didn't have time to convert it. So I should say it was a false spike.

For the 60, I have a canister filter that moves 350 gph. The guy at our LFS sold it to us, and having not been familiar with canisters, we just went along with it. My boyfriend set it up that night, and I didn't have a good chance to research it on my own. Could I add the penguin 200 and run both and have that be sufficient? Or is there a way to make the canister more powerful?

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You can certainly run both filters on the larger tank. I like having two filters because if one goes out the other becomes backup.

 

Both filters (one canister and one HOB) together would be moving 550 gph. That's about 9x. That's definitely sufficient because one filter is a canister. What kind of media do you put in your filters?

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The hob has the biowheel and then just the filter cartridges. Canister we have 2 sponges in the bottom basket, the 5 "bio stars" the filter came with, as well as an entire bag of bio media rings, and I think another sponge in the top. I left the carbon out in case I need to use meds.

Would the canister not be enough on its own at 350gph?

Edited by misssmountain

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I'd like a closer pic of the eye please.

 

Just got home after being at work for the evening. Went to take a better photo of the eye, and it's looking MUCH better. It's been about 8 hours since I did a 30% water change. I'll let you know tomorrow if anything changes!

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A bath is something different, but don't worry about that for now. I was just wondering if you did one during the time of the prazi treatment.

 

That is odd to get an ammonia spike if you do a 50% water change in your 25 gallon tank. I'm wondering if something is getting released from the gravel. :idont

 

The gravel in your 25 gallon tank is on the thick side. We recommend 0.25-0.5 inches so there is less chance of pockets of bad bacteria. Do you regularly vacuum your gravel at each water change?

 

Your filter does 200 gallons per hour. Ideally for a HOB filter you want 10X the tank size per hour for goldfish. For 25 gallons you want 250 ghp and for 60 you'll want 600gph. They are just so messy. :) If you get a canister filter you don't need to do 10x; 7x is usually sufficient.

 

How long has the dorsal fin been torn? Since Thanksgiving? Can you get a closer shot of the dorsal fin? Even if you have to have someone hold her gently in the tank.

 

The first pic shows the tear in her dorsal. The second shows how it looked just before it tore. And yes, this happened right around Thanksgiving. Her name is Nacho BTW :)

 

IMG_20141216_162045286_zps0ec95319.jpg

 

nacho2_zps696364db.jpg

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The hob has the biowheel and then just the filter cartridges. Canister we have 2 sponges in the bottom basket, the 5 "bio stars" the filter came with, as well as an entire bag of bio media rings, and I think another sponge in the top. I left the carbon out in case I need to use meds.

Would the canister not be enough on its own at 350gph?

For a 60 gallon goldfish tank you would need a canister that does 450 gph (7.5 x 60).

 

Just to clarify for the HOB, are those cartridges carbon?

Edited by LisaCGold

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A bath is something different, but don't worry about that for now. I was just wondering if you did one during the time of the prazi treatment.

 

That is odd to get an ammonia spike if you do a 50% water change in your 25 gallon tank. I'm wondering if something is getting released from the gravel. :idont

 

The gravel in your 25 gallon tank is on the thick side. We recommend 0.25-0.5 inches so there is less chance of pockets of bad bacteria. Do you regularly vacuum your gravel at each water change?

 

Your filter does 200 gallons per hour. Ideally for a HOB filter you want 10X the tank size per hour for goldfish. For 25 gallons you want 250 ghp and for 60 you'll want 600gph. They are just so messy. :) If you get a canister filter you don't need to do 10x; 7x is usually sufficient.

 

How long has the dorsal fin been torn? Since Thanksgiving? Can you get a closer shot of the dorsal fin? Even if you have to have someone hold her gently in the tank.

 

The first pic shows the tear in her dorsal. The second shows how it looked just before it tore. And yes, this happened right around Thanksgiving. Her name is Nacho BTW :)

 

IMG_20141216_162045286_zps0ec95319.jpg

 

nacho2_zps696364db.jpg

 

 

I've reported to the moderators about Nacho's tear in dorsal fin and dots on caudal fin. Good to hear the eye is getting better. Let's see what the mods have to say about it all.

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How is Nacho's eye?

 

What salt concentration did you have in the tank during the 4 week Prazi treatment?

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How is Nacho's eye?

 

What salt concentration did you have in the tank during the 4 week Prazi treatment?

I am using the filter cartridges, but with the carbon removed from them.

Eye is looking MUCH better! Not sure what that was all about, but looking back to normal for the most part.

I started with 1 tbsp per 5 gallons. Then near the end of the last treatment I bumped it to 1 tsp per gallon.

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Regarding the filter, are you putting any bio media in them like Seachem Matrix, bioballs or bio max? Other than sponge material for mechanical filteration, I'm looking for material on which the beneficial bacteria is growing (biological filteration). I'm not familiar with your filter's cartridges so maybe there is biomedia in there.

 

Regarding the salt, it looks like the max you got to for the salt concentration was 0.1%. The moderators suggest doing a salt treatment of 0.3% for two weeks with the temperature of the water in the 70's. This will help to eliminate any parasites that are not flukes. These parasites may be the cause of the white dots on the caudal fin and the tear on the dorsal fin that is not healing.

 

Before starting the salt treatment, it would be good to make sure the eye is back to normal. If it looks okay tomorrow morning, you can start the treatment. If it gets worse during treatment, let us know asap.

 

Here is the information for doing a salt treatment on your tank: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/94546-on-the-use-of-salt/

 

I suggest you do 0.1% salt initially, then every 12 hours add another 0.1% salt until you have 0.3%. If at any point, Nacho's eye gets swollen, please let us know asap.

 

Let us know if you have any questions.

Edited by LisaCGold

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Thanks, Lisa.

 

I looked up those products and what I have looks similar to the "bio max"...I don't think it was brand name, they sold us a huge bag of them, but they look pretty much the same. Maybe the holes on mine are a little bigger?

 

I also have the 5 API Bio Chem Stars the filter came with, but the little white cylinder things fill up an entire basket on the canister.

Edited by misssmountain

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I am planning on moving them to the 60 on Monday...can I start the 0.3% salt then? Should I transfer any of the old tank water over? The 60 has been filled for a couple of weeks now with the filter running.

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Oh, and should the bio chem stars be in the same basket as the ring/cylinder things? I'm not sure if we put the stars right on top of the sponges in the first basket or if we put all of them in the second basket (pretty sure they're all together in the second basket) -- does it matter, and if so, which way is best?

 

Sorry for all of the questions, this is my first time switching tanks :)

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I am planning on moving them to the 60 on Monday...can I start the 0.3% salt then? Should I transfer any of the old tank water over? The 60 has been filled for a couple of weeks now with the filter running.

 

When you move to the 60 don't move the tank water over. Use new water (just match temp and ph). Just move the filter and/or old filter media. The beneficial bacteria (bbs) is mostly in the filter bio media. Bbs is also in the gravel and tank and filter walls, but not as much as the bio media.

 

When you transfer everything, including fish, you may get a cycle bump (meaning the cycle may be off a bit). It would be good to watch the tank carefully for the first week to see if that happens. If you want to move to the 60 now, I would wait at least a week after that happens to make sure the cycle has stabilized.

 

If you do move to the 60, you will be using lots of salt. Your fish will love the space though.

 

Let me ask the moderators if they recommend moving to the 60 or staying with the 25 for the salt treatment...stay tuned...

Edited by LisaCGold

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Oh, and should the bio chem stars be in the same basket as the ring/cylinder things? I'm not sure if we put the stars right on top of the sponges in the first basket or if we put all of them in the second basket (pretty sure they're all together in the second basket) -- does it matter, and if so, which way is best?

 

Sorry for all of the questions, this is my first time switching tanks :)

 

Your questions are good ones. Can you ask your canister filter setup questions in the tank and equipment forum? There will be much more knowledgeable people there to respond.

Edited by LisaCGold

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I am planning on moving them to the 60 on Monday...can I start the 0.3% salt then? Should I transfer any of the old tank water over? The 60 has been filled for a couple of weeks now with the filter running.

 

When you move to the 60 don't move the tank water over. Use new water (just match temp and ph). Just move the filter and/or old filter media. The beneficial bacteria (bbs) is mostly in the filter bio media. Bbs is also in the gravel and tank and filter walls, but not as much as the bio media.

 

When you transfer everything, including fish, you may get a cycle bump (meaning the cycle may be off a bit). It would be good to watch the tank carefully for the first week to see if that happens. If you want to move to the 60 now, I would wait at least a week after that happens to make sure the cycle has stabilized.

 

If you do move to the 60, you will be using lots of salt. Your fish will love the space though.

 

Let me ask the moderators if they recommend moving to the 60 or staying with the 25 for the salt treatment...stay tuned...

 

 

We are on a bit of a time crunch as I need the 25 to be disinfected and ready to use for QT for a new fish arriving Jan. 7th :)

 

Just did an ammonia test and it came back at nearly 1.0! I did a water change yesterday...so I tested the tap and it's coming in right around 1.0. I dosed with Prime and will test again in the morning...maybe like last time, the bacteria just need a chance to catch up and hopefully this will resolve quickly.

 

I'm kind of wondering if all of this is coming up because we're a little overcrowded and it's time to move up? I'm wondering if things will resolve simply by giving everyone more space and fresh water...

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Regarding the salt treatment, you can choose where to do the treatment. If you choose to do it in the 25, you won't need to worry about a cycle bump and you will not be introducing some potential parasites to the 60 (because many of the parasites will be killed in the salt treatment). If you choose to do it in the 60, you would have to watch out for a potential cycle bump and you will have to use lots more salt. If it were me, I would do the treatment in the 25 and do a couple of large water changes per week.

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I am planning on moving them to the 60 on Monday...can I start the 0.3% salt then? Should I transfer any of the old tank water over? The 60 has been filled for a couple of weeks now with the filter running.

 

When you move to the 60 don't move the tank water over. Use new water (just match temp and ph). Just move the filter and/or old filter media. The beneficial bacteria (bbs) is mostly in the filter bio media. Bbs is also in the gravel and tank and filter walls, but not as much as the bio media.

 

When you transfer everything, including fish, you may get a cycle bump (meaning the cycle may be off a bit). It would be good to watch the tank carefully for the first week to see if that happens. If you want to move to the 60 now, I would wait at least a week after that happens to make sure the cycle has stabilized.

 

If you do move to the 60, you will be using lots of salt. Your fish will love the space though.

 

Let me ask the moderators if they recommend moving to the 60 or staying with the 25 for the salt treatment...stay tuned...

 

 

We are on a bit of a time crunch as I need the 25 to be disinfected and ready to use for QT for a new fish arriving Jan. 7th :)

 

Just did an ammonia test and it came back at nearly 1.0! I did a water change yesterday...so I tested the tap and it's coming in right around 1.0. I dosed with Prime and will test again in the morning...maybe like last time, the bacteria just need a chance to catch up and hopefully this will resolve quickly.

 

I'm kind of wondering if all of this is coming up because we're a little overcrowded and it's time to move up? I'm wondering if things will resolve simply by giving everyone more space and fresh water...

 

 

Could you get a 10 gallon tank for QT? If so, you would just need an airstone with water changes every day or every other day.

 

An overcrowded tank does stress the fish which weakens the immune system. More room will help.

 

I do think a 0.3% salt treatment will help to reduce the parasite load.

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I am planning on moving them to the 60 on Monday...can I start the 0.3% salt then? Should I transfer any of the old tank water over? The 60 has been filled for a couple of weeks now with the filter running.

 

When you move to the 60 don't move the tank water over. Use new water (just match temp and ph). Just move the filter and/or old filter media. The beneficial bacteria (bbs) is mostly in the filter bio media. Bbs is also in the gravel and tank and filter walls, but not as much as the bio media.

 

When you transfer everything, including fish, you may get a cycle bump (meaning the cycle may be off a bit). It would be good to watch the tank carefully for the first week to see if that happens. If you want to move to the 60 now, I would wait at least a week after that happens to make sure the cycle has stabilized.

 

If you do move to the 60, you will be using lots of salt. Your fish will love the space though.

 

Let me ask the moderators if they recommend moving to the 60 or staying with the 25 for the salt treatment...stay tuned...

 

We are on a bit of a time crunch as I need the 25 to be disinfected and ready to use for QT for a new fish arriving Jan. 7th :)

 

Just did an ammonia test and it came back at nearly 1.0! I did a water change yesterday...so I tested the tap and it's coming in right around 1.0. I dosed with Prime and will test again in the morning...maybe like last time, the bacteria just need a chance to catch up and hopefully this will resolve quickly.

 

I'm kind of wondering if all of this is coming up because we're a little overcrowded and it's time to move up? I'm wondering if things will resolve simply by giving everyone more space and fresh water...

 

Could you get a 10 gallon tank for QT? If so, you would just need an airstone with water changes every day or every other day.

 

An overcrowded tank does stress the fish which weakens the immune system. More room will help.

 

I do think a 0.3% salt treatment will help to reduce the parasite load.

I could, but the new fish is quite a bit larger than my current ones and I worry that would just be way too small, even for a temporary QT situation...unless it won't matter since I'm doing water changes all the time?

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