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Emergency Euthanasia without clove oil?

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Thanks for the clarification :)

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I have had to put down 4 fish in tge past, and I used the directions Helen points out in a video she posted here.

Very helpful.

I don't like suffering, so after the clove oil, I decapetate to be certain. (that part was not part of Helen's video, but my decision)

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and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

 

 

what stress do anaesthetics cause to goldfish? particularly clove oil? i will be interested to know the detail since i have sedated and euthed using only clove oil and not noticed anything but peacefulness during it's use in both scenarios..

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I think this is what DP is referring to regarding freezing alone as a means of euthanizing Goldfish:

https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

Page 71, right hand column:

"This method of euthanasia is not appropriate for temperate, cool or cold-water-tolerant finifish, such as carp, koi, goldfish or other species that can survive at 4 degrees celcius and below".

Which is why your freeze solid in a freezer to -20 C/ 0 F or add chlorine.

The ice bath is just the incapacitation portion which is nearly instant.

Strong doses of clive oil work but I think the ice bath knocks them out faster and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

 

I don't understand. If the source you originally tilted says your method is not acceptable, why does it all off a sudden become acceptable to do the unacceptable if you throw it in the freezer afterward? 

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and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

 

 

what stress do anaesthetics cause to goldfish? particularly clove oil? i will be interested to know the detail since i have sedated and euthed using only clove oil and not noticed anything but peacefulness during it's use in both scenarios..

 

I think clove oil is humane and effective but nothing in nature is free.  Any animal when being sedated has a spike in the stress hormone cortisol before the anesthesia take effect.  These hormones are very primitive and work across most animal and most certainly across fish.  Here is a slide showing the spike in cortisol as sedation take effect.  Isoeugenol is a synthetic form of eugenol or clove oil.  I'm sure cortisol is released with an ice bath as well but the incapacitation of a fish (from warm temperatures to cold temperatures) is nearly instant.

 

This was done in atlantic salmon.

10695_2009_9346_Fig3_HTML.gif

From: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10695-009-9346-2/fulltext.html

 

 

 

 

I think this is what DP is referring to regarding freezing alone as a means of euthanizing Goldfish:

https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

Page 71, right hand column:

"This method of euthanasia is not appropriate for temperate, cool or cold-water-tolerant finifish, such as carp, koi, goldfish or other species that can survive at 4 degrees celcius and below".

Which is why your freeze solid in a freezer to -20 C/ 0 F or add chlorine.

The ice bath is just the incapacitation portion which is nearly instant.

Strong doses of clive oil work but I think the ice bath knocks them out faster and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

 

I don't understand. If the source you originally tilted says your method is not acceptable, why does it all off a sudden become acceptable to do the unacceptable if you throw it in the freezer afterward? 

 

 

The ice bath is the anesthesia not the euthanasia.  The freezing solid to 0F / -20 C or adding chlorine after incapacitation is the euthanasia.

 

Please remember these protocols are conservative and slow to change.  Until this 2013 update clove oil was not approved nor was ice bath for any fish.  Groups who wanted to use clove oil did work to get it included and we did work to get ice included.  There are so many myths about ice baths forming ice crystals in the flesh but if a high school kid were to simply think about the physics of this it would be impossible.  Tissue is salty, freezes lower than water and even ice at 32F or 0 C in a bath of water can not freeze water.  The freezing of the tissue happens long after the fish could have any chance of feeling pain as the nerves do not conduct information at 0 C.

 

They specifically say an ice bath is not approved for cold water fish euthanasia because it does not get cold enough.  Ice is however ok for anesthesia (ever put ice on a wound?) so the animal is incapacitated and incapable of feeling pain before the euthanizing temperatures are reached.

 

In our Western philosophy, if it's not done with a chemical it must not be good type of philosophy.  There is rarely money or effort put into proving a cheap or free alternative yet there is big business in proving a chemical is the way to do something.  We'll never lose this internet myth but hopefully some here will feel comfortable using this safe, easy and widely available method of ending their dearly beloved pet's life without hacking it's head off.  

 

Sorry if I didn't get this across as throughly as possible, I'm typing while eating and rushing off ship fish to researchers across the country.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ichthius

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yeah.. with all due respect, i won't be recommending the ice method for euthing.. logic tells me that a minimal amount of stress is better than facing a drastic temperature shock. i'm happy to stick with my methods of euthing :)

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No worries, you can recommend which ever protocol you like, what would you recommend in this case where Clove oil was not available?

Just remember Clove oil is also only recently accepted.

Edited by Ichthius

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Fantastic discussion.  :clapping:

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No worries, you can recommend which ever protocol you like, what would you recommend in this case where Clove oil was not available?

Just remember Clove oil is also only recently accepted.

 

i didn't have a recommendation and welcome(d) your alternative methods :) so i wished the OP well and closely followed this educational thread to which you offer excellent education, as always. since the OP's needs were addressed, i took the opportunity to 'pick your brain' on a method that i am comfortable with. it's great to see you frequenting the forums again :) 

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I am enjoying this thread, too :)

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The interesting thing about the ice is, virtually everywhere you look it's discredited but there is never a source to any details showing it actually is bad.

Yet a large number of the fish we eat, both warm and cold, wild and cultured end their life in an ice bath, followed by a secondary method, yet it's humane when they are to be consumed. With food you actually want to avoid cortisol and stress and it makes for tougher beef, less firm fish etc. and since this is a sign of stress we want the same thing for our pets.

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Thanks all, for the info. This can be a tough topic, as it's hard for us to put down our own pets. Remembering that the topic was how to euthanize in an emergency without clove oil, we have to accept the second best option may not be ideal, but it still may be better than letting the fish continue to suffer. I think I would prefer to put the fish directly into previously cooled ice water rather than putting it in water and adding ice.

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i am curious, David. what do you prefer to use for sedating goldfish prior to surgery?

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I have had to put down 4 fish in tge past, and I used the directions Helen points out in a video she posted here.

Very helpful.

I don't like suffering, so after the clove oil, I decapetate to be certain. (that part was not part of Helen's video, but my decision)

 

that's another option i find that some members like to use. i have never done it myself, even during post-mortem.. 

 

directly after a golfish euthanasia, i decided to post-mortem. i had done several before and closely looked at specific organ heath for clues as to why the fish had failed to respond to conventional treatments.. often i would find dissolved organs, lots of retained body fluids, much of a mess.

 

with the last post-mortem i did, i specifically went in to see tumors. i had removed the intestinal sac from the goldfish and carefully opened it to educate myself on what healthy organs actually looked like since the fish displayed no symptoms other than external tumors.

 

i detached the heart from its surrounds and left to beat on its own. the heart was still beating two hours later without any assistance from me.

 

the dose of the clove oil was enough to consider the fish 'clinically dead'. for instance, it would be impossible for me to at that stage, return the organs to the fish and wake him. brain function was none.

 

Alex (dnalex) explained to me (since i was slightly uneasy with my findings.. lol), that this is not uncommon, that there do exist some animals where a heart can continue to beat for some time after death and provided a link for similar circumstances on turtles.

 

this is the exact reason why after i euth, i choose to then place the animal in the freezer.

 

please excuse my lack of science terms, i am uneducated in biology and self taught via kokos and textbooks for my goldfish hobby.

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i am curious, David. what do you prefer to use for sedating goldfish prior to surgery?

Ms222. There is a new exotic animal vet show call dr k's exotic animal hospital or something like that and she did the fastest un sedated wenopsy, wenectomy? On a large Oranda. Snip snip and she was done. No anesthetic and the fish didn't even flinch.

If you're ok doing a necropsy pithing might be something to study up on that way they are certainly brain dead even if the heart is beating.

Goldfish hobbyists, one of the few who do their own necropsies.

Edited by Ichthius

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i am curious, David. what do you prefer to use for sedating goldfish prior to surgery?

Ms222. There is a new exotic animal vet show call dr k's exotic animal hospital or something like that and she did the fastest un sedated wenopsy, wenectomy? On a large Oranda. Snip snip and she was done. No anesthetic and the fish didn't even flinch.

If you're ok doing a necropsy pithing might be something to study up on that way they are certainly brain dead even if the heart is beating.

Goldfish hobbyists, one of the few who do their own necropsies.

 

 

It's interesting how when it comes to zebrafish, though, MS-222 is thought to be the less humane (more stressful) method for euthanasia, as compared to the rapid chilling you've been discussing in this revived thread, because zebrafish can detect MS-222 and try to avoid it. I wonder if that is applicable to goldfish as well.

http://www.nature.com/news/fish-kill-method-questioned-1.14768

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i am curious, David. what do you prefer to use for sedating goldfish prior to surgery?

Ms222. There is a new exotic animal vet show call dr k's exotic animal hospital or something like that and she did the fastest un sedated wenopsy, wenectomy? On a large Oranda. Snip snip and she was done. No anesthetic and the fish didn't even flinch.

If you're ok doing a necropsy pithing might be something to study up on that way they are certainly brain dead even if the heart is beating.

Goldfish hobbyists, one of the few who do their own necropsies.

 

i will, thank you for the lead :)

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I've found this thread really interesting...I don't even any scientific things or articles or what have you...but I can say that when I euthanized my Betta with clove oil, he initially seemed very panicked, he had barely moved at all for a few days before then, but as soon as I started adding the clove oil he was swimming around very erratically and even jumped a few times, after about 30 seconds he relaxed but it had me worried.

 

I've also euthanized goldfish using clove oil, and each time they didn't even seem to notice when I added the clove oil, they just acted as they had been before and slowly stopped moving and drifted off.

 

Just my personal experiences though. I guess we don't know exactly what they are feeling, we just have to do our best to work out what we think will be the least stressful for them,

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i did some reading.. i agree with the findings from Alex. i read that the MS-222 was avoided by the zebrafish. i also read up on pithing. i am not sure i could do that prior to clove oil.

 

i look at it from a human's perspective. if i were to go in for a procedure, i would be sedated and any works done would not be felt. pain relief would already be given to me whilst asleep from the sedative, and i would wake feeling comfortable.

 

so, i would still find it the best solution to sedate prior to any further actions such as freezing or severing a goldfish.

 

with the clove oil, some members have reported an initial jolting behaviour from their goldfish. this could be that either they have placed a fish in the required solution, or they have added the required amount of clove oil in one go to the euthing tub. i recommend that it is gradually added since i have not witnessed any such behaviour with this method for any of the fish that i have sedated or euthed.

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and anesthetics do cause stress reaction in fish.

 

 

what stress do anaesthetics cause to goldfish? particularly clove oil? i will be interested to know the detail since i have sedated and euthed using only clove oil and not noticed anything but peacefulness during it's use in both scenarios..

 

....  We'll never lose this internet myth but hopefully some here will feel comfortable using this safe, easy and widely available method of ending their dearly beloved pet's life without hacking it's head off.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't loose your head over it, just one persons opinion :)

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Pithing would be after the secondary method after clove oil, ice, or ms222. Freezing solid or pithing is to be sure there is no recovery.

I was suggesting you use it in place of freezing solid if you wanted to inspect the plumbing.

Fish do not like anesthetics and the avoidance is clear as is the cortisol spike when they are sedated. This is why I like the ice to knock them out as they don't have time to panic as they go under as it is nearly instant, their nerves don't transmit signals, anyone can do it and as you go through to freezing solid there is no awareness or pain.

In the avoidance paper they fled all the common sedatives. I suspect this paper was to prove a new chemical is best but it was only showing they weren't as adverse to it.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073773

I think more work would need to be done on their ability to block pain. Most of the time these are used for fin clipping or other surgical procedures so the pain aspect is important as well.

Edited by Ichthius

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