Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Glenn

11 goldfish missing their tails - ideas anyone?

Recommended Posts

These 11 goldfish without tails. I had an Owner Turn In (OTI) of 42 fancy goldfish about three days ago. They all had bad fin rot and were in horrific shape. The woman apparently didn't bother to cycle the tank of do any significant amount of water changes. I was so appalled at there condition my ears turned red and my hands shook. I sucked it up and acted professional. Two died the first night, and in the morning I gave the remaining 40 .03 IM injections of amakasin and added1 TBSP of salt for every 5 gallons. But there are 11 split between two 150 gallon tanks that have NO TAIL at all. Just stumps. My boss (a veterinarian) had me add erythromycin to the tank water until they showed significant signs of tissue granulation. That could be up to180 days and I have NO idea what long term exposure to erythromycin will do to a goldfish. I've used the search engine on Koko's and come up with no straight forward answers. I know fungal infections are always secondary to bacterial infections, but these guys are so far gone I wonder if I should treat for fungus too.

 

Glenn
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds drastic to want to extend erythro treatment to 180 days.

Do you have any pics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See? That's what I thought. I think the amakasin injection in cotton oil should be enough.  I'm still researching which camera I want to buy and I have no cell phone. I also just dropped 1600.00 for 7 Fluval FX6's, and bought new xmas stock for my store. I should send out my rose maintenance invoices now before the busiest shopping day of the year. That's a nice chunk of money out there. dnalex, any suggestions on which camera I should pick? I just need a decent one for focusing on fish in a fish tank.

 

Glenn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would recommend any of the Nikon lines. It really depends on your budget, but the truth is that the Nikon D3300, 5300, or 7100 will all do a good job.

I agree that the injections should be enough, IF whatever affected fish is susceptible to alkamycin. I would imagine that as a vet, this is something he can figure out easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the camera suggestions. They will be most helpful. I cultured many of the infected areas and they all came back as mycobacter bacillus. A normally harmless bacteria found in soil. The results for the fungal infection are taking a bit longer but after the amikacin injections most of the fungal fuzzy parts faded. I'm guessing the extremely poor water quality they had to endure suppressed their immune systems. Erythromycin injections would be much more effective but erythromycin is nephrotoxic to fish to some extent and I don't want to stress them out any more than need be. They look a thousand percent better than when they first came in but it's still a horrific site. They seem to be in good spirits and are eating well but still have trouble getting around. I'm feeding them peas and pellets by hand. I found a person in Sebastopol who is having a pond built. They have agreed to let me stock their pond for free with the 40 Frankenstein fish. They should be way on there way to healing by the time the pond is ready.

 

Glenn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Thank you for the camera suggestions. They will be most helpful. I cultured many of the infected areas and they all came back as mycobacter bacillus. A normally harmless bacteria found in soil. The results for the fungal infection are taking a bit longer but after the amikacin injections most of the fungal fuzzy parts faded. I'm guessing the extremely poor water quality they had to endure suppressed their immune systems. Erythromycin injections would be much more effective but erythromycin is nephrotoxic to fish to some extent and I don't want to stress them out any more than need be. They look a thousand percent better than when they first came in but it's still a horrific site. They seem to be in good spirits and are eating well but still have trouble getting around. I'm feeding them peas and pellets by hand. I found a person in Sebastopol who is having a pond built. They have agreed to let me stock their pond for free with the 40 Frankenstein fish. They should be way on there way to healing by the time the pond is ready.

 

Glenn

 

Which Mycobacterium? This makes a world of difference, because mycobacteria are notoriously difficult (if not impossible) to treat, and different antibiotics have different effects on the different mycobacteria (M. tuberculosis v. M. avium, for example).

 

I know that this is the last thing you want to hear, but it would be remiss of me not to raise the issue. If you really suspect that this is mycobacterium, it may be in your best interest to isolate these fish from all others, from now until the entire colony dies out. Other steps also may be needed. As you know, Mycobacteria are extremely resilient and persistent, and it would be terrible that in the process of trying to save this group, you contaminate your future fish.

 

I am not at all suggesting that your fish has tuberculosis infection, not having seen anything to make any sort of conclusion, but if you suspect tb in the fish, you should consider carefully your options.

 

This article

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/SRAC-Publication-No.-4706-Mycobacterial-Infections-of-Fish.pdf

 

suggests that Tb infections of ornamental fish should be considered untreatable, in the sense that as soon as you remove the treatment, the symptoms come right back. It might be worth reading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't myco cultures take 6 to 8 weeks to culture? You can get some growth earlier but even 4 weeks is rapid. It must have been a stain, not a culture right?

Mycobacteria are in essentially all aquatic biofilms most are not pathogenic and those that are, are poor pathogens. It's only a few like marinum or haemophilum that cause problems in fish.

I think the best approach to treating a large group of sick fish like this would be either medicated feed or preferably oxolinic acid baths.

Edited by Ichthius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mycobacterium vaccae as far as we can tell. I remember I had a hard time staining it and the flagellate had a really strange spiral movement to it. It took me hours to find a picture that looked like it. We sent samples to Golden Bear Bio Studies and should have the final results next week. I really hope it's not the TB strain. The cultures died quickly when exposed to amakasin. and they look so much better I just know it's working. I still don't understand the need for erythromycin but I'm not going to call my boss during Thanksgiving. Thank you for the url and the heads up. Oh and nothing gets to my fish without getting through a lengthy quarantine.

 

Glenn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it usually does take a month or so for a proper mycobacterium culture, but we got a dime sized patch growing after only 4 days at 72 degrees. I used both stain and culture to try and identify it. As far as I can tell it should be the harmless kind that live in dirt. What it's doing in an aquatic environment effecting fish is beyond me. I'll definitely pass on your treatment suggestions to my boss. I think treating with erythromycin was his version of a hail Mary pass. The fish have open wounds where their tails used to be. Any suggestions on medicated food to buy?

 

Glenn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't M. vaccae a soil bacterium?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Significant growth in 4 days seems extremely fast. How will your lab be speciating the samples? colony morphology, pcr or hsp65 sequencing?

TB does not infect fish, it's other species that have had TB erroneously applied to it because it's a myco bacteria.

Vaccae can be aquatic and is found in ground water. Many souls are essentially aquatic during certain parts of the year. Our original filter bacteria species were erroneously id'd as species which were soul species. This wasn't fixed until Tim Hovanec corrected that.

As far as food goes, medikoi, or make your own in a gel food/repashy. Others will have some options as well.

Edited by Ichthius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have problems believeing that M. vaccae can be the culprit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have problems believeing that M. vaccae can be the culprit.

Presence does not indicate pestilence. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have problems believeing that M. vaccae can be the culprit.

Presence does not indicate pestilence. ;)

Absolutely, even the presence of pathogenic microbes doesn't establish causality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In research zebrafish we often find mycobacteria in older fish, and the vast majority of the time it's sub clinical and only detected through histology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes!! It's supposed to be soil borne and harmless.  There going to use their PCR machine they share with Marin/Sonoma Mosquito Abatement. They have to wait for Carolina Biological for a sample to compare it to or something. A ton of biologists will be looking at it so If I made a mistake (likely) I'm sure they will find it. I can identify any oocist  just by looking at it but bacteria? They all look alike (at least to me after 1.5 hours of staring at pictures.) The main group of goldfish look almost back to normal (with the acception of the crooked fins).

Edited by Glenn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking forward to your future updates. Hopefully it will come with technical data and results, and not simply conclusions. I am a student of techniques, and would like to look into the technical aspects as well.

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure thing DNALEX. I talked with Yountville and was told the morphology definitely suggests the "rough" variant of Mycobacterium vaccae, but the growth rate is too fast. There (I hope I get this right) going to sequence it's nucleotide DNA. Anyway the PCR machine should be done when they come in on Monday morning. David explained it might not even be one of the causes of the fishe's sickness. It might be a beneficial bacteria embedded in the slime coat sucking up ammonia and carbon from other more harmful bacteria. What ever was ailing those fish is definitely being affected by the amakasin. If I have to look at any more "morphology" I'm going to puke. They all look THE SAME.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My immunohematologist has me abrading mycobacter vaccae with sand paper into my skin in an attempt to attenuate my immune system. Since I've started the treatment my E cells have dropped to normal levels. It could be a fluke and the amount of fibrogin in my blood has decreased. He also had me drink oocists from a swine parasite which put me into remission for a full 6 weeks but It was WAY expensive. Mycobacter vaccae is really interesting in what it does to the human immune system. Look up the "Hygiene theory" The goldfish are looking great. My boss said they would be a lot better off if they could produce slime coats on their tail stubs. Is there anything accept salt that can help a fish generate a slime coat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...