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Ruby

QT Advice : Kusuri Wormer Plus

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I have had my new babies in QT for almost two weeks. Aside from a rocky start due to the stress of bad overnight shipping ( :madrant ) they have settled well and seem to be very healthy. I am planning on keeping them in QT for the full four weeks which will give me time to set up my new big tank ( :happydance ). I have a bag of Kusuri Wormer Plus to hand but I'm not a fan of medicating any animal for the sake of medicating them. The advice I want is whether or not I should go ahead and use the Kusuri Wormer Plus on my new babies or leave well enough alone as they seem very healthy :idont .

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Have you treated with anything in QT?

I don't think any of us medicate just for the sake of medicating . . .

Essentially all fish have flukes whether they show symptoms or not. Waiting for them to show symptoms just means the fluke population is heavy. :idont

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The fluke treatments are in no way 'medicating for the sake of medicating' and can potentially save a fish's life if done early enough. This is the same as a dewormer for dogs (even the exact same ingredient!). All goldfish have flukes unless they have been treated. If they haven't and the flukes get time to develop, then you wind up with either a very sick animal by the time you start to see symptoms, or even a dead animal because the treatment becomes too much for them to handle. Fluke treatments are some of the absolute gentlest treatments on the market today. The only times they ever kill fish are if the dosage is obscenely wrong (like... much more than 2x) or if the fish is already too far infested to save. I wouldn't go on without treating just because the fish appears healthy, when you know factually that there are little micro-bugs crawling all over your fish.

Edited by ChelseaM

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Have you treated with anything in QT?

I don't think any of us medicate just for the sake of medicating . . .

Essentially all fish have flukes whether they show symptoms or not. Waiting for them to show symptoms just means the fluke population is heavy. :idont

Sorry! Didn't mean to imply that anyone here medicates for the sake of medicating :oops: . It's just that my husband's always warning me about being over parnoid about the fish and keeps reminding me that medicating them when they're not actually sick can be just as bad. With my new babies I've just treated with aquarium salt so far. Unfortunately I'm still new to fishkeeping so if I work on the assumption that all goldies come with flukes I should probably treat my other 4 fish at the same time, I got a big bag so should have enough.

The fluke treatments are in no way 'medicating for the sake of medicating' and can potentially save a fish's life if done early enough. This is the same as a dewormer for dogs (even the exact same ingredient!). All goldfish have flukes unless they have been treated. If they haven't and the flukes get time to develop, then you wind up with either a very sick animal by the time you start to see symptoms, or even a dead animal because the treatment becomes too much for them to handle. Fluke treatments are some of the absolute gentlest treatments on the market today. The only times they ever kill fish are if the dosage is obscenely wrong (like... much more than 2x) or if the fish is already too far infested to save. I wouldn't go on without treating just because the fish appears healthy, when you know factually that there are little micro-bugs crawling all over your fish.

Okay, the little micro-bugs is a horrible creepy thought :yikes but I see what everyone is saying. I'll definitely treat the whole bunch of them. Everytime I think I've got a handle on goldfish stuff I find out something else I should of already known. I feel really stupid right now :wall .

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Don't feel stupid! Ask away!

What percent salt did you use?

I totally agree with your husband as far as over treating. That can be as bad, if not worse, than under treating. :o

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Don't feel stupid! Ask away!

What percent salt did you use?

I totally agree with your husband as far as over treating. That can be as bad, if not worse, than under treating. :o

I'm at 0.3% salt for the new babies. Gradually increased it from 0.1% every 12hours when I started. Working out the salt dosages when doing water changes is vaguely horrific :blink:

I am working on the assumption that I continue to use the salt while treating them with Kusuri Wormer Plus?

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Don't feel stupid! Ask away!

What percent salt did you use?

I totally agree with your husband as far as over treating. That can be as bad, if not worse, than under treating. :o

I'm at 0.3% salt for the new babies. Gradually increased it from 0.1% every 12hours when I started. Working out the salt dosages when doing water changes is vaguely horrific :blink:

I am working on the assumption that I continue to use the salt while treating them with Kusuri Wormer Plus?

I agree! :lol3

Cute avi by the way. :)

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

Could you point me in the direction of where you found that info on flubendazole and salt? I couldn't find anything on whether flubendazole is 'inactivated' by 0.3% salt like Prazi is, or whether it's safe to double dose Kusuri's flubendazole preparation. To be on the safe side I have just used 0.1% salt and a single dose of Kusuri. But it would be great if it's safe to use at 0.3% salt :)

Welcome to the forum Ruby :D

I'm from the UK too so also use Kusuri Wormer Plus. Although it says on the packet that only a single dose is required, Jared very rightly highlighted to me that a second dose would be needed 2-3 days later to ensure that all the life stages of the fluke are zapped. So I've done one dose, water change after 4 days, then dose again in about another 2-3 days. I know you're concerned about giving more meds than necessary, but I do think that you might as well do it properly and get all of the bugs if you're going to do it at all :)

And don't worry about asking questions! It's the only way to learn and it shows that you care :D

Oh and with regards to working out salt concentrations, it's easy with litres. For a 0.1% salt concentration I just always remember that its the same number of grams of salt as litres of water in your tank, e.g. a 300l tank would need 300g of salt to be at 0.1%. Hope that helps :)

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As far as I know it is needed for all anthelmintics that are waterbourne but I will try and find some info to back that up. :)

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One way around this is to do a 6-week QT. 2 weeks of salt at 0.3% followed by 4 weeks of Prazi or Flubendazole with salt at 0.1%. I also feel like this is easier on the fish. However, if there is a major fluke infestation evident, it is probably best to deal with that first :)

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

Could you point me in the direction of where you found that info on flubendazole and salt? I couldn't find anything on whether flubendazole is 'inactivated' by 0.3% salt like Prazi is, or whether it's safe to double dose Kusuri's flubendazole preparation. To be on the safe side I have just used 0.1% salt and a single dose of Kusuri. But it would be great if it's safe to use at 0.3% salt :)

Welcome to the forum Ruby :D

I'm from the UK too so also use Kusuri Wormer Plus. Although it says on the packet that only a single dose is required, Jared very rightly highlighted to me that a second dose would be needed 2-3 days later to ensure that all the life stages of the fluke are zapped. So I've done one dose, water change after 4 days, then dose again in about another 2-3 days. I know you're concerned about giving more meds than necessary, but I do think that you might as well do it properly and get all of the bugs if you're going to do it at all :)

And don't worry about asking questions! It's the only way to learn and it shows that you care :D

Oh and with regards to working out salt concentrations, it's easy with litres. For a 0.1% salt concentration I just always remember that its the same number of grams of salt as litres of water in your tank, e.g. a 300l tank would need 300g of salt to be at 0.1%. Hope that helps :)

I searched and searched. Found a few papers where it is mentioned in the abstract by Helen Roberts but unfortunately I didn't pay the price to read the full article so I am unsure the correlation that was mentioned. I guess the 'azoles' are not affected by salt above 1ppt

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

Could you point me in the direction of where you found that info on flubendazole and salt? I couldn't find anything on whether flubendazole is 'inactivated' by 0.3% salt like Prazi is, or whether it's safe to double dose Kusuri's flubendazole preparation. To be on the safe side I have just used 0.1% salt and a single dose of Kusuri. But it would be great if it's safe to use at 0.3% salt :)

Welcome to the forum Ruby :D

I'm from the UK too so also use Kusuri Wormer Plus. Although it says on the packet that only a single dose is required, Jared very rightly highlighted to me that a second dose would be needed 2-3 days later to ensure that all the life stages of the fluke are zapped. So I've done one dose, water change after 4 days, then dose again in about another 2-3 days. I know you're concerned about giving more meds than necessary, but I do think that you might as well do it properly and get all of the bugs if you're going to do it at all :)

And don't worry about asking questions! It's the only way to learn and it shows that you care :D

Oh and with regards to working out salt concentrations, it's easy with litres. For a 0.1% salt concentration I just always remember that its the same number of grams of salt as litres of water in your tank, e.g. a 300l tank would need 300g of salt to be at 0.1%. Hope that helps :)

I searched and searched. Found a few papers where it is mentioned in the abstract by Helen Roberts but unfortunately I didn't pay the price to read the full article so I am unsure the correlation that was mentioned. I guess the 'azoles' are not affected by salt above 1ppt

Either that or no-ones published anything on it. I'm always a bit nervous of doing something without an evidence base, hence why I'm just single dosing at 0.1% salt. I'll have a look to see if there's anything in the library at uni tomorrow if I have time. There's generally a very good evidence base for the use of benzimidazoles (the family of anthelmintics flubendazole belongs to) in terrestrial domestic species, but nothing I can find on its use in aquatics or with salt. It's so frustrating that there's such a limited evidence base for fish medicine compared to the other species.

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

Could you point me in the direction of where you found that info on flubendazole and salt? I couldn't find anything on whether flubendazole is 'inactivated' by 0.3% salt like Prazi is, or whether it's safe to double dose Kusuri's flubendazole preparation. To be on the safe side I have just used 0.1% salt and a single dose of Kusuri. But it would be great if it's safe to use at 0.3% salt :)

Welcome to the forum Ruby :D

I'm from the UK too so also use Kusuri Wormer Plus. Although it says on the packet that only a single dose is required, Jared very rightly highlighted to me that a second dose would be needed 2-3 days later to ensure that all the life stages of the fluke are zapped. So I've done one dose, water change after 4 days, then dose again in about another 2-3 days. I know you're concerned about giving more meds than necessary, but I do think that you might as well do it properly and get all of the bugs if you're going to do it at all :)

And don't worry about asking questions! It's the only way to learn and it shows that you care :D

Oh and with regards to working out salt concentrations, it's easy with litres. For a 0.1% salt concentration I just always remember that its the same number of grams of salt as litres of water in your tank, e.g. a 300l tank would need 300g of salt to be at 0.1%. Hope that helps :)

I searched and searched. Found a few papers where it is mentioned in the abstract by Helen Roberts but unfortunately I didn't pay the price to read the full article so I am unsure the correlation that was mentioned. I guess the 'azoles' are not affected by salt above 1ppt

Either that or no-ones published anything on it. I'm always a bit nervous of doing something without an evidence base, hence why I'm just single dosing at 0.1% salt. I'll have a look to see if there's anything in the library at uni tomorrow if I have time. There's generally a very good evidence base for the use of benzimidazoles (the family of anthelmintics flubendazole belongs to) in terrestrial domestic species, but nothing I can find on its use in aquatics or with salt. It's so frustrating that there's such a limited evidence base for fish medicine compared to the other species.

I would try to contact the manufacturer of the medicine and ask them :)

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Yes but you need to double dose your wormer when it is in 0.3% salt. Salt at that concentration only needs to be for a two weeks treatment. :)

Could you point me in the direction of where you found that info on flubendazole and salt? I couldn't find anything on whether flubendazole is 'inactivated' by 0.3% salt like Prazi is, or whether it's safe to double dose Kusuri's flubendazole preparation. To be on the safe side I have just used 0.1% salt and a single dose of Kusuri. But it would be great if it's safe to use at 0.3% salt :)

Welcome to the forum Ruby :D

I'm from the UK too so also use Kusuri Wormer Plus. Although it says on the packet that only a single dose is required, Jared very rightly highlighted to me that a second dose would be needed 2-3 days later to ensure that all the life stages of the fluke are zapped. So I've done one dose, water change after 4 days, then dose again in about another 2-3 days. I know you're concerned about giving more meds than necessary, but I do think that you might as well do it properly and get all of the bugs if you're going to do it at all :)

And don't worry about asking questions! It's the only way to learn and it shows that you care :D

Oh and with regards to working out salt concentrations, it's easy with litres. For a 0.1% salt concentration I just always remember that its the same number of grams of salt as litres of water in your tank, e.g. a 300l tank would need 300g of salt to be at 0.1%. Hope that helps :)

I searched and searched. Found a few papers where it is mentioned in the abstract by Helen Roberts but unfortunately I didn't pay the price to read the full article so I am unsure the correlation that was mentioned. I guess the 'azoles' are not affected by salt above 1ppt

Either that or no-ones published anything on it. I'm always a bit nervous of doing something without an evidence base, hence why I'm just single dosing at 0.1% salt. I'll have a look to see if there's anything in the library at uni tomorrow if I have time. There's generally a very good evidence base for the use of benzimidazoles (the family of anthelmintics flubendazole belongs to) in terrestrial domestic species, but nothing I can find on its use in aquatics or with salt. It's so frustrating that there's such a limited evidence base for fish medicine compared to the other species.

I would try to contact the manufacturer of the medicine and ask them :)

I've decided that the safest would be to wait until they're finished the salt treatment - so I'm going to dose the entire horde next week. Since Kate89 has used the Kusuri Wormer Plus successfully I'll follow the same process and do two spaced doses.

A particular thank you to Kate89 for the advice on working out salt dosages with liters!! I'm definitely buying a better kitchen scale just for that :9 .

I do want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this :) . I agree that there is far to little on fish medicine in comparision to other domestic species. I'm still interested if anyone can find out about the use of salt with Kusuri Wormer Plus though, I think it would be good information for all the UK based goldie keepers to have. So if anyone finds out please post it! I may still give the manufacturers a call tomorrow and see what they say.

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